Sure, once it’s over it’s easy to look back at key points in a game and critisize managerial decisions — but since when does it make sense to throw strikes with two outs, runners on second and third with first base open?
Oh yeah, and with one of the greatest hitters in baseball history up at the plate.
Yet, Lim Chang-yong threw eight pitches to Ichiro Suzuki and not one was a wasted pitch. Six of the eight were fastballs, most of which were hovering around 95 mph. The eighth was a splitter down the middle that hung over the plate and was slapped into center for a 2 RBI single to put Japan up by the final 5-3 score.
Hard to fathom any circumstance where not walking Ichiro made any sense. Before Akinori Iwamura took second on catcher’s indifference, announcer Rick Sutcliffe speculated it might not be a great move by Japan to take the open base (Korea wasn’t holding the runner at first) since it would essentially take the bat out of Ichiro’s hands.
To rewind that a little further, the decision to not hold the runner at first is even questionable. Third string firstbaseman Lee Tae-kuen (an outfielder) was a full 15-20 feet behind the runner. This even caught Japan, who didn’t take it’s free base until the second pitch, off-guard.
This is nothing but boneheaded nationalistic bravado here, folks. This was Kim In-shik attempting to engage Ichiro one-on-one. I would fully take it the other way and say this disrespected Ichiro. After Iwamura took his free base Lim threw a fastball on the outter half of the plate, which Ichiro fouled off. Next pitch, another fastball, again fouled away.
Lim is a very good pitcher, and as opposed to 90% of the right-handed submarine pitchers in the world, he can get left-handed hitters out. Last year, in the NPB Lim surrendered a .264 on base average versus lefties. That mark was 20 points higher versus righties. But Ichiro is no ordinary left-handed batter. He too defies common logic and has a career .387 mark versus LHPs — ten points higher than that against right-handed pitchers.
In the mind of Kim In-shik to walk the reviled Ichiro was to lose face. Even with Hiroyuki Nakajima (hitting .222 for the WBC) on deck, even with first base open and two outs, even with his closer having already thrown over 30 pitches, Kim (since he’s likely calling the pitches from the dugout) came at Ichiro with several more pitches before the eighth was lined into centerfield.
The move ignored basic baseball strategy, and it ignored the kind of hitter that Ichiro has been his entire career. The only thing it didn’t ignore was the history of the Japanese and Korean nations. It cost Korea its chances at the WBC crown.
98 responses so far ↓
1 Jackson // Mar 24, 2009 at 4:46 pm
It’s hard to know exactly what was going on in manager Kim’s mind, but I think your conclusion is right. Kim and Lim were bound to go after Ichiro no matter what, you could tell from the pitch selection. Whether it was nationalism or just silly bravado, it cost them the WBC.
2 Dan // Mar 24, 2009 at 5:23 pm
Just got back from the game. It was an incredible atmosphere. Tons of Korean fans….and the amount of Japanese fans surprised me. I think a lot of them may have flown in from Japan.
My friend and I were amazed Korea did not walk Ichiro in that situation. I will have to re-watch the whole game since I was in the LF pavillion, but it was a great game. Hope this proves the WBC haters wrong…but probably not.
Point and case….ESPN radio tonight after the game. Jason Smith bellyaching about the WBC….but then goes on to talk about the Davidson NIT game. An NIT Game!! so dumb.
anyways, was a great game…my voice is gone from breaking out the Philly boo for Ichiro, but fly home tommorow and will hopefully have some good pictures.
3 Shinsano // Mar 24, 2009 at 5:32 pm
Wow if you’re tired from breaking out that boo of yours that place must have been rumbling.
Thanks for the game report. There aren’t any WBC haters in my world, so I can’t even begin to comment on that.
4 angry steve // Mar 24, 2009 at 5:41 pm
Korean press is reporting that the manager is claiming he indeed ordered a more-or-less intentional walk to Ichiro. Not sure if his story is that this was ignored or misinterpreted by the pitcher.
Sounds like b.s. to me.
Probably told the pitcher to “be careful, don’t give him anything good to hit” etc. Which is NOT an intentional walk.
For the manager to fob this off on his players is disgraceful.
5 Durf // Mar 24, 2009 at 6:24 pm
There were a whole lot of pitches to Ichiro in his last at-bat, and the manager sure had plenty of time to get out there for a conference with the pitcher if the signals were getting crossed.
It was a great game. The Koreans turned a lot of heads and people are going to be wondering why more of them aren’t in the Major Leagues in years to come.
6 Takeshima // Mar 24, 2009 at 6:24 pm
I guess this it settles. Takeshima (which is the island) is belong to Japan.
Korea must now quit crybaby over spilt Kimuchi.
I will protect my dog from loser angry Korean looking for meat in stew.
7 Takeshima // Mar 24, 2009 at 6:45 pm
Ichiro=GOD
8 Korean Nationalism Costs It WBC Crown? | The Marmot's Hole // Mar 24, 2009 at 6:48 pm
[...] East Windup Chronicle, Aaron Shinsano says the refusal to walk Suzuki Ichiro was the product of Korean nationalism and little else: This is nothing but boneheaded nationalistic bravado here, folks. This was Kim In-shik attempting [...]
9 myasu // Mar 24, 2009 at 7:35 pm
Great, great game.
Team Korea scared the hell out of me even in the bottom of the 10th.
Considering the history of their short professional league, it is amazing how far they came this fast!
To the poster 6&7…
Shame on you.
10 Ironchef // Mar 24, 2009 at 7:47 pm
Ichiro sure bailed out a lot of people, mostly Darvish, Kawasaki, and Darvish.
11 Rikola // Mar 24, 2009 at 9:41 pm
All in all a good game, I could barely watch, as Korea had a very slight up on Japan. Korea should have come with a victory, but this stupid move by Korea brilliantly instigated by Japan was very indicative of Japan’s manipulative ability to shill.
Now Korean manager has nothing left and wants to blame his own players? Ichiro made a fool out of himself, and now he saves his face. This was brilliant maneuvering of the Korean Manager and Japanese staffed Korean players by Japan.
12 Shinsano // Mar 24, 2009 at 10:10 pm
I have a really hard time believing Lim missed a sign to walk Ichiro (http://news.naver.com/sports/wbc2009/index.nhn?ctg=news&mod=read&office_id=073&article_id=0001989172&date=20090324&page=3)
I don’t want to call Kim In-shik a liar, but I might call him a face-saver. At what point did he want Lim to walk Ichiro…they let Iwamura take second base, and then Lim had Ichiro in the hole 1-2. Did he miss eight consecutive signs?
I don’t know how the press conference went, but my guess is Kim was immediately questioned about pitching to Ichiro by foreign reporters. This is just what he came up with.
13 JW // Mar 24, 2009 at 11:07 pm
Actually, I would rather take my chances with throwing garbage at Ichiro than have to face the next guy straight up bases loaded. I think it is the best strategy. The FAT FUCKING TEEBALL pitch…no excuse. We had our chance to win that game. I still can’t believe Jeong and Bong got out of their jams as often as they did. Incredible that the game was as close as it was with their runners getting on base practically every inning.
14 JW // Mar 24, 2009 at 11:08 pm
It’s not at all a bad idea to take your chances with throwing garbage at ichiro. What are his chances of getting a base hit against garbage thrown at him? I would guess not over 250 to 260. Not bad odds.
15 JW // Mar 24, 2009 at 11:10 pm
Nationalism? Bullshit. I think it’s more a sign that people are blindly worshipping the hitting ability of Ichiro. Of course as an overall player he is top 9 in the ENTIRE history of baseball, but I think it’s very possible that his ability to make line drive contact is exaggerated due to people disregarding how many infield hits he’s able to pull off with that blazing speed and his ability to jump out of the box WHILE making contact.
Not saying nationalism didn’t motivate the players GENERALLY, but specifically in terms of that matchup against Ichiro, I think it mattered ZERO.
16 wat // Mar 24, 2009 at 11:29 pm
Blindly worshipping what? The infield depth was normal for Ichiro because of the situation, so that brings all of his skills into play besides line drives. An infield hit would have netted a run as well.
Ichiro is a lifetime .330-ish hitter, there’s nothing fluky about that. Also, they didn’t throw garbage at him, they went after him very aggressively. And you can’t pull a number like .250-.260 out of your ass dude.
It’s not inconceivable that such a ridiculously nationalistic people could be motivated by hatred or disdain for Ichiro and try to prove a point by getting him out in that situation. Unfortunately they put ego over results. Play with fire long enough…
17 JW // Mar 24, 2009 at 11:43 pm
All I’m saying is, it’s not as bad a idea as you think it is. They were trying to pitch around him. He threw a pitch into the plate, for goodness sake. Very clear that they weren’t willing to give him anything good. And with Korea’s defense being as good as it is and the likelihood of a groundball off Ichiro, I don’t think it was such a horrible decision at all.
And I do think it’s very possible that people exaggerate his ability to make line drive contact. By how much, I don’t know, but surely you can see the possibility.
18 Jackson // Mar 25, 2009 at 12:00 am
JW
I dunno m’man, I saw nothing but heater after heater around the strike zone. Ichiro is one of the best hitters to ever play the game of baseball and he was 3 for 5 already in the game. If by pitch around him, you mean throw it nowhere in the vicinity of the plate or even in the same zip code and hope he chases it, then I see your point. But Lim and Kim wanted a showdown. And they paid for it.
19 Bobby McGill // Mar 25, 2009 at 12:10 am
Wouldn’t surprise me a bit. Ichiro really irked the Koreans in the last WBC and what with the ongoing feuds from Japan’s colonialism, walking the arch enemy (personified by Ichiro) would be a loss of face.
We wouldn’t be asking the question if it had made good baseball sense. In that sense it could go either way. Walk Irchiro and load the bases and take your chance on a low level hitter or… well, you know where the alternative got them
Bobby
http://www.idlewordship.com
20 JW // Mar 25, 2009 at 12:15 am
True, I think Lim may have been too aggressive despite the call from Kim to pitch around him (the interview points this out).
I think though that if you consider how dangerous it is to pitch straight up to a guy with bases loaded, it does make sense. Ichiro hits ALOT of ground balls, and they were confident with defending ground balls. It really was a doable option, and not so crazy as people are making it out to be.
21 JW // Mar 25, 2009 at 12:35 am
Pitching around Ichiro (though allowing him to make contact) VS Pitching with the pressure of possibly walking home a run to Nakajima
I don’t think the first option was so bad that you can say it “cost the game”.
22 FRED KNOWS BEST // Mar 25, 2009 at 12:42 am
This is truly interesting. Especially the different thoughts coming in from around the globe. “A SHOWDOWN” and “NATIONALISTIC PRIDE” and so on . . .
The Korean team played brilliantly and had confidence they were going to overcome any adversity they may face.
They took no prisoners in the Olympics and won 9 games in a row. They do not fear Japan in competition. They also do not pick and chose their battles in some cases.
In this case, they just felt they were going to survive another threat. It just so happened that the threat was Ichiro.
They didn’t survive that one, but the idea that they thought they could, is the same reason why they were in the finale.
We all just need to show some gratitude towards the WBC for having allowed us fans witness a wonderful display of baseball in all its splendor.
23 Johnny // Mar 25, 2009 at 12:58 am
Im with you. It makes no sense to not walk Ichiro in that situation. Anyone who does not count the absolute hatred the Koreans have for Japanese is not evaulating the whole situation. The looks on the faces of the Koreans was not to defeat a rival team, but to defeat an entire nation. It is almost as if the war has not ended in their minds that revenge is still to be had.
During shots into the crowd when Ichiro was playing, fans chanted “Ichiro Sucks!” Even though he maybe be the most talented hitter of all time as proven by his abilityt o hit damn near anything.
TO the Koreans: as a Filipino, whose people were also brutilized by tht Japanese, I can only suggest you get over it. We have.
To the Japanese, Well played, but please stop pitching in the dirt and Johjima….WTF? I knew you at Daiei. What happened?
24 JW // Mar 25, 2009 at 1:08 am
No I don’t believe that Lim missed a sign for intentional walk either. Possible, but very unlikely. Probably Lim was told to pitch around him to see if he’ll bite, and if the count got bad, to walk him THEN.
25 Ron // Mar 25, 2009 at 1:16 am
Does the press go after managers in Asia in the post-game they way they do in the States?
26 ?????????? » Korean responses to Japanese WBC Championship // Mar 25, 2009 at 1:51 am
[...] seriously, the voice of reason must be heard here. Enter Shinsano from East Windup Chronicles who chalks up Korea’s lost to its own “boneheaded nationalistic bravado.” He [...]
27 JW // Mar 25, 2009 at 2:16 am
You guys know how consistently and how much a batter’s avg improves with bases loaded…this isn’t that hard to figure out.
28 Chady // Mar 25, 2009 at 2:26 am
What a great game. I’m really bummed i went to bed after the ninth inning! Geez
Not that I want to deplete the talent of the KBO and the NPB, but I can’t wait to see more of these players here in MLB.
29 JW // Mar 25, 2009 at 2:27 am
Quick example. Steve Yeager batted .228 forhis career, but with bases loaded, an astounding .321
A HUNDRED POINT difference.
30 Jackson // Mar 25, 2009 at 2:54 am
You just don’t pitch to a hall of fame hitter that’s already 3 for 5 in a game with first base open and two outs, when the guy on deck isn’t a hall of fame hitter and not having a great series at the plate.
31 JW // Mar 25, 2009 at 2:56 am
Yeah, I understand the sentiment, really I do. But from a numbers standpoint, which is what managers go by, you have to understand the opposing viewpoint here. And that it’s not ridiculous. A bad choice maybe, but not ridiculous.
32 JW // Mar 25, 2009 at 3:32 am
Sorry for posting all over this thread, I hope you don’t mind. Here’s an important quote from the interview
? ??? “?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???, ?? ???? ??? ??? ???”? “? ???? ?????? ??? ? ?? ??”? ???.
Translation:
“I didn’t call an intentional walk, but the sign clearly went out to him to try to get him with balls out of strike zone but if it didn’t work out, to just walk him. The catcher also clearly gave Lim the sign. I don’t know why Lim threw a ball in strike zone”.
I think Lim was slightly too aggressive, and of course the fat pitch over the plate was just that, a fat pitch. But Kim’s strategy was totally sensible. Was Lim being overly nationalistic, or was he overly pumped up by the nature of competition? I have no idea, but it certainly doesn’t warrant a post like this.
33 j // Mar 25, 2009 at 3:53 am
All I can say is, Japan won because they were a better team in the end. Korea is happy to have played a good game to a good rival and lose, they didn’t even expect to be in the finals with the team members they got a few months back.
But to write this sort of shoddy after-game interpretation and comments and blame Kim and nationalism and blah blah blah (READ what Kim said in the interview – he signaled to walk Ichiro) takes that much away from Japan’s glory. Shame on you!
34 muratafan // Mar 25, 2009 at 6:13 am
This is a bit of a tough one for me to figure out. On the one hand, Ichiro lined a double against Lim in the 9th inning, so I am not sure why you would want to pitch to him. On the other hand, Lim was ALL OVER the place and looked very, very shaky out there. Pitching to Nakajima – who hit a screaming line drive in the 9th as well – with the bases loaded with a wild pitcher, who was well past his typical pitch limit screams TROUBLE as well.
The last thing I would want to do as manager would be to put in a replacement for Lim with the bases loaded. Plus, the Koreans were really down to their last relievers (not the best ones available) who could potentially replace Lim.
I don’t think it was 100% nationalism, but I do think it did factor. However, I really think the fact that Lim was laboring and very wild were considerations into the pitch-to-Ichiro strategy.
In terms of face-saving, Hara’s incessant need to bat Ogasawara against lefties, when he looked totally overmatched against them, is CLASSIC face-saving crap that has got to stop. If Japan had lost, I don’t think I could ever say Ogasawara without putting some sort of saucy ‘adjective’ in front of his name.
35 Christopher // Mar 25, 2009 at 8:20 am
It was a difficult call. Certainly, it’s Ichiro and he is having a good game but he hasn’t been too good in the tournament with runners on. Then the next batter is Nakajima who has been very effective driving runners in. So if you walk Ichiro you face Nakajima with bases loaded. Personally, I don’t think that nationalism really played much part in the decision – just the fact that there was one out to go with a batter who hadn’t been driving in that many runs.
36 hansioux // Mar 25, 2009 at 9:11 am
wait wait wait, J, if Japan’s expected to be in the finals, and you’ve been watching team Korea for the past year, you’d know they belonged there with team Japan. Korea deserved to be there. But the way they approached every match against Japan was just wrong.
They went out against Japan at every match up, wanting to do what ever it takes to win. But out of the 5 match ups, only 3 really mattered. Two of them were pointless to win or lose. (which is something WBC needs to address). To throw everything they’ve get against Japan when it didn’t matter, and over-joy over winning, and then losing games when it matters is not the best thing the Koreans could have done.
But it was a great game after all, probably the best WBC game there was.
37 FAQz // Mar 25, 2009 at 9:43 am
Ichiro has around 630 hitting % when runners are in scoreing position.
The Korean coach was retarded.
JW will say any silly thing becasue he is Korean.
Nationalism, say it ain’t so Joe.
38 Arthur // Mar 25, 2009 at 9:59 am
FAQz: Coach said in AP that he signaled to pitch outside or walk, and I’m akin to believing him, considering it’s the right thing to do. Why so eager to call him “retarded”? Nationalism indeed.
Also, if nationalism is the issue, again, I would say it stems from the pitcher, most nationalists are usually young punks. Lim most likely wanted to strike Ichiro out and be the ‘hero’ and got the result that usually occurs when one gets cocky.
39 hansioux // Mar 25, 2009 at 10:18 am
Arhur, Lim pitches in Japan. I fail to see how he can be a cocky nationalist when he is getting paid in Yen. I seriously doubt it was Lim who decided to pitch heaters down the lane to Ichiro.
40 Shinsano // Mar 25, 2009 at 10:38 am
I really don’t like Manager Kim’s comments on this. For one, if Lim did miss a signal, and he blew the game by going after Ichiro, it should be kept private, not brought up by the manager immediately after the game.
Secondly, if Lim was instructed to pitch around Ichiro, then why didn’t the pitching coach go to the mound after the first, second, fifth, or seventh pitch? C’mon, this is Korea. Players do what the coaches say. Lim missed the strike zone on exactly one of those pitches. As I said in the article, it wouldn’t surprise me if Manager Kim was calling most if not all of the pitches from the dugout. If not, there’s no reason not to go to the mound in that situation. If he doesn’t, it’s all on him. Which is exactly where I’m putting it.
41 Christopher // Mar 25, 2009 at 10:59 am
Ichiro might have a .630 percentage overall but in the tournament he doesn’t and earlier left two runners on base. That makes him a legitimate target for a pitcher.
42 Dan // Mar 25, 2009 at 11:05 am
I’m with you Aaron. Not liking In-sik’s comments. If he would have just intentionally walked him and gone after Nakajima, I would have been happier….even if Nakajima got a game winning RBI etc.
Oh well, it’s over and now I can look forward to watching Doosan tear up the KBO. Matt Watson time!!!
43 hansioux // Mar 25, 2009 at 11:09 am
Oh yeah, that reminds me, Mike Johnson who pitched for Canada against team USA will be there in Korea.
Can you guys help me gets some updates on how he is doing there once the season starts?
44 JW // Mar 25, 2009 at 11:54 am
Shisano,
I don’t think “pitch around” is the correct way of putting it. In the interview, he described it more as “go after him with balls (as opposed to strikes)”, which is more in line with Lim’s role as closer. Was the sign missed on the last several or just the last one pitch? I dunno.
Again, I don’t think “go after him with balls” wasn’t such a radically bad idea as some people here want to believe.
45 Japan Wins WBC Championship Over Korea, Is Korean Nationalism to Blame for the Loss? | ROK Drop // Mar 25, 2009 at 12:44 pm
[...] via the Marmot’s Hole comes this thought provoking conclusion, did Korean nationalism cost the Korean baseball team the WBC Championship? Tags: baseball, Japan, korea, WBC, World Baseball Classic [...]
46 FAQz // Mar 25, 2009 at 12:46 pm
Manager is hanging the picture. Kim In Suk has no face. Shame on him.
The Korean nationalists have shown up in force here. SPIN SPIN SPIN baby. Kim In Suk is a total joke and a retard. He lost due to his lack of understanding of the game.
47 Jackson // Mar 25, 2009 at 12:58 pm
Come on now, you can hardly call Kim those names. He did a great job managing that team, he just made a fatal decision that decided the big game. I’m sure he regrets it.
Not to keep going in circles on this, but here’s what I think a fair way to look at it is: It’s not really certain if it was nationalism but it was certainly silly bravado that caused the manager to pitch to Ichiro. There’s no way the pitcher disregarded his instructions and threw to him anyways. Secondly, pitching to Ichiro was dumb. Anyone I knew watching the game was sending me text messages about it saying “gee, why is he pitching to him” or something like that. I don’t care what the stats say in this case. It’s common sense. First base is open and Ichiro is one of the best hitters in the history of the game. There’s no other move.
But calling Kim a joke is way beyond, I think he did a spectacular job in that series and just made one bad call at the wrong moment.
48 Teresal // Mar 25, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Korea played with their heart and soul. A couple of bad calls and smaller strike zones for Koreans didn’t help them. The best baseball game ever!
Poster 6, & 7, you’re an idiot. Dokdo Island has and will always be Korea’s island. If your God is Ichiro, then I feel bad for you. You should be ashamed of yourself for making stupid comments about Koreans. BTW, try taking some English courses.
49 Did Nationalism cost Korea the WBC? | Are you Insane? // Mar 25, 2009 at 1:41 pm
[...] is the explanation given by East Windup Chronicle why the Korean closer Lim kept throwing fastballs in the strike zone at Ichiro. As you can see in this sequence, Lim was throwing heat and Ichiro was hacking away at anything, [...]
50 Yuka Nakamura (aka DarvishLover) // Mar 25, 2009 at 2:23 pm
shut up, you know Dokdo’s korea’s.
you’re an idiot, post 6+7. stop being so stupid.
i’m japanese, and i fully believe that dokdo’s korea’s.
but japan won! whoo-hoo! :]
korea deserved to win though…
51 WINJAPAN // Mar 25, 2009 at 3:31 pm
I have to agree with Takeshima. This proves that Takeshima is Japanese. LOL
Korea choked and played a softer schedule Jackson. Korea is better then a few teams, but the rest of the teams either didn’t have their best players or nobody piched hard so they would not get hurt. Come on Jackson, you know that.
Sorry about the Takeshima comment, I am just feeding the Korean trolls.
52 brendan // Mar 25, 2009 at 5:25 pm
the decision to pitch to a batter with runners on third and second and two outs was a correct one. the chances of getting out of that jam, i think, are better than facing a guy with the bases loaded, where you may have the pitcher become too fine with his pitches and starts aiming, instead of pitching. also too bad he was pitching against one of the best hitters of this generation.
about the nationalism stuff, wouldnt you lose more face by losing a game then by intentionally walking a batter? i dont know, just a thought
53 Jackson // Mar 25, 2009 at 5:25 pm
Other countries may have more individual talent on their rosters than Korea but I think this WBC showed that Korea can match up with anyone on the planet as a team. There’s no question that Japan has a deeper pool of baseball talent but when you’re matching up the top guys in each country it’s pretty damn close. Don’t sell Korea short.
54 Baseball and Nationalism. « Theory, Culture & Society // Mar 25, 2009 at 9:03 pm
[...] The Korean manager says after the game that he called for the intentional walk but there was a communication problem with his young pitcher. But others blame nationalism. [...]
55 KoreanTrolls // Mar 26, 2009 at 1:11 am
All the Koreans posting that the Korean coach did the right thing reminds me of when that move D-war came out and Koreans flooded all the movie blogs writing what a good movie it was. They all gave it 5 stars to bump it from all the 1 stars that non Koreans gave it.
56 tomojiro // Mar 26, 2009 at 10:30 am
Somewhat I think this guy explanation is the most plausible for me.
“Everyone is second-guessing Korea manager In-Sik Kim’s decision to pitch to Ichiro in the 10th, but to me the decision wasn’t totally cut and dry. Ichiro hadn’t performed in the WBC until the final game, and Hiroyuki Nakajima had had a pretty good tournament. I’m not saying I agree or disagree with his call, but had he walked Ichiro we might be wondering why he loaded the bases for Nakajima. ”
http://www.npbtracker.com/2009/03/a-classic-worthy-of-the-name/#content
I guess people here are wondering about the managers decision (or indecision), and angry about that because you are rooting for Korea( which is perfectly understandable).
But as the blogger to whom I have linked says, it is rather hindsight I guess.
Although I understand it. It would be the same if I would be on the other side.
57 LOL // Mar 26, 2009 at 11:40 am
Wrong again Tomojiro Kim. First of all, Nakajima was batting 202 for the WBC and if the whole “loaded bases” arguemnent is false because any runs would have won it for Japan . One two three or four doesn’t make a difference.
Anyway, Nakajima is not a home run hitter, so bases loaded is not exactly an advantage. Any real manager, other then a douche bag like IM SUCK KIM, would know that.
Tomojiro kim, can you find a NON KOREAN real sports writer that says that IM SUCK KIM made a smart move.
Didn’t think so.
58 LOL // Mar 26, 2009 at 4:28 pm
Koreans are so nationalistic, no wonder everyone in Asia is learning to hate them.
59 AP // Mar 26, 2009 at 4:30 pm
Perhaps it is an issue of nationalism but if you look at it from strictly a sports angle, Korea wanted to take the trophy AND knock out the opponent’s superstar player in the process. Whether or not it was a smart move is besides the point. You have to give them props for taking on Ichiro.
I remeber back when Bonds was playing the boos you would hear each and every time he got walked, even on road games. It was at this time many debated on the fairness of walks as fans felt they were being deprived of the show they paid good money to see. As a sports fan you want to see the best players challenged, and the WBC final gave us that.
The smart money says walk Ichiro, but maybe the Koreans had revenge on their minds. You can call it nationalism but Ichiro talked a lot of trash and they wanted it to be him to let his country down with an out and go home in shame. It was risky but had it worked imagine the joy it would have brought them. Usually revenge is outside the boundaries of reason. Unfortunatley in this case it cost them the title. If you have no vested interest it’s easy to say not walking him was stupid, but they had the balls to pitch to him and I’m glad I got to see it.
Korea had a chance to win it in the 9th anyway, just needed one more base hit. If you were cheering for Korea and are upset I’d try to put a little more focus on Young Min Ko who had a terrible at bat with 2 outs and the GW run at second base.
60 Jackson // Mar 26, 2009 at 6:41 pm
Ko dropped that liner earlier as well. He’s got some tools but seems to be a bit hot headed leading him to press, and could use a better approach at the dish instead of trying to hack at everything.
61 LOL // Mar 26, 2009 at 11:30 pm
“The smart money says walk Ichiro, but maybe the Koreans had revenge on their minds. ”
Then then you agree, dumb money was to pitch to Ichiro. Nevertheless, Koreans playes by what is called nationalism.
“You can call it nationalism but Ichiro talked a lot of trash ”
Name the trash he talked during the 2009 WBC. My guess is that you have nothing to say about the 2009 WBC and will take somthing that the Korean press made up from earlier.
“and they wanted it to be him to let his country down with an out and go home in shame.”
Yes. Korean nationalism lost it. Shame on Korea and the douche bag of acoach.
62 DJ // Mar 27, 2009 at 1:29 am
Props to Shinsano for coming up with such a provocative premise. This one really set all of your new readers off. Good shit.
By the way, I’m assuming comments #6 and #7 are jokes. And if I’m right, they’re the funniest comments I’ve read here. Takeshima=GOD!
63 AP // Mar 27, 2009 at 7:14 am
I watched the game in a room full of Koreans. They all insisted that Ichiro had dissed their team/country. You can attribute that to false press or a statement made at the last WBC or something he said at any point in his life. Regardless whether it is true or not that Ichiro ever said something bad about Korea, many Koreans (at least the ones I watched the game with) have it in thier minds that Ichiro dissed them. Why bother questioning it, it will only fire them up and all I really want to do is enjoy the game.
Since they are so dead set on having beef with the guy who cares if/when Ichiro became public enemy #1? The fact is he is, to them at least. I personally admire Ichiro, but I am not Korean and I could care less about any comments he might have made. He is an outstanding ballplayer and a future hall of famer, but that is another conversation.
I do find it interesting that a room full of Korean-Americans all despise Japan in general, despite being only 20 and 30-somethings and growing up in the US. I’d say it would be a wise decision for the older Korean generations to try to move on from their troubled history, but as a nation divided they are constantly reminded of the past on a daily basis. Far be it for me, a non-Korean, to judge them on any of this.
All I can really say is that as a fan of the sport it was a treat to see these two teams go at each other and hopefully we get to see a rematch at the next WBC.
64 JYL // Mar 27, 2009 at 8:45 am
AP/ If you know the history between japan & korea, you wouldn’t say that. I dont hate japanese people, but i hate their government. Japan invaded korea, killed thousands of people, forced young koreans to be a bullet bait during the war, raped our young teens, etc etc and NEVER once apologized to koreans. And, they are claiming that Dokdo (japanese call it Takeshima) is their island. Thing about japanese government is that they don’t teach these to their citizens. I bet not a lot of japanese people know about “Maruta.” It’s japanese version of holocaust. It was the most disgusting experiment that you can possibly do to a humankind. So, this is more than a yankee-red sox like rivalry. The root of korea-japan rivalry is all based on the history between them. If you didn’t know, now you know.
65 hansioux // Mar 27, 2009 at 9:33 am
Japan never apologized? That is yet another false information that just don’t quit to spread online.
Being Taiwanese and to have my home island occupied by the Chinese Nationalists, I hear a lot of talks from the Chinese side about how Japan “never apologized” crap also. Which is simply not true.
As late as 2007, Prime Minister Shinzo Abe said “I express my sympathy toward the comfort women and apologize for the situation they found themselves in.” “I apologize here and now as prime minister.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan
List* of apology statements issued by Japan. Plenty of they directed to Korea. How’s that for never?
I am Taiwanese, and Japan did a lot of crap to Taiwan. I understand the need to be fired up about this. But don’t buy into Nationalistic propaganda. That is what causes wars in the first place. If you don’t do your research and spread propaganda falsehood about hate, eventually you’d be no different from those Japanese who bought in the propaganda that it is ok to invade Korea. Move forward and learn the truth about the real past and the real situation between Korea and Japan.
There are plenty of hawks in Japan who are douchebags and spread propaganda that a lot of what Japan did was justified and there weren’t sex slaves in the Imperial Army during WW2, but they are not the entire Japanese people or government. Rivalry between Japan and Korea is well and good, but both sides needs to be true to history. And walk Ichiro whenever the time calls for it.
66 DJ // Mar 27, 2009 at 9:35 am
This is rich!
67 hansioux // Mar 27, 2009 at 11:23 am
You know, Korea is not the only colonies of Japan. In fact, Taiwan was the first Japanese colony. There are comfort woman here in Taiwan just as well. Abe Shinzo and Koizumi are hawks. Even they had to apologize. However, those comfort women on official record were indeed volunteers, but they were deceived on the nature of their work. They were told that they’d be like nurses. But there were a lot more comfort women who were forced, especially the comfort women drafted in war zones, who are not on the record. But Korea isn’t in the war zone, and that’s what the debate is about.
68 Dan // Mar 27, 2009 at 11:49 am
so umm…back to baseball.
How about those Doosan Bears? Another Doosan/SK series?
69 DJ // Mar 27, 2009 at 11:56 am
Best comments ever!!!!1
70 5thcolumnist // Mar 27, 2009 at 12:07 pm
” Korean-Americans all despise Japan in general, despite being only 20 and 30-somethings and growing up in the US. ”
1) they are willingly brainwahsed
2) they are not real Americans.
3) if America and NKorea get in a war, quickly shoot them in the head before they stab you in the bck.
71 5thcolumnist // Mar 27, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Korean “comfort” women were forced into nothing.
Koreans whores rioted over their demands that they get to sell their pu$$ies.
h t t p://www.who-sucks.com/people/the-exciting-world-of-south-korean-protests
The Japanese did them a favor by paying them so much. Now they want even more money. Talk about a bunch of ungrateful money grubbing whores.
72 5thcolumnist // Mar 27, 2009 at 12:16 pm
“Japan invaded korea, ”
Another Korean troll lying. When did Japan “invade”? You mean in 1592? If you meant in modern times, then where did this invasion take place? There was none, you lying dog.
“killed thousands of people, forced young koreans to be a bullet bait during the war”
Bullet bait? Koreans didn’t serve on the side of the Allies, because they are too cowardly to fight, and their was no draft in Korea until the war was almost over. Those few that got drafted never faught. Koreans are well known cowards.
“raped our young teens, etc etc and NEVER once apologized to koreans”
Yet one more lie. Three strikes and you are out.
73 DJ // Mar 27, 2009 at 12:24 pm
Delightful!
74 5thcolumnist // Mar 27, 2009 at 12:40 pm
Good point about Kim In-shik having no “face”. Another Korean with no face is Lee Yong Kyu. Lee, who should be know as Lee the baby, refused to wear the silver medal. Because he was a whiny little baby b1tch.
No wonder he got bean bagged. I would have bean bagged a crybaby like that too.
75 Dan // Mar 27, 2009 at 12:53 pm
if you guys are gonna post this crap, at least be man enough and use your real name.
76 Dan // Mar 27, 2009 at 1:26 pm
OK, I changed my ID to my real name.
77 Dan // Mar 27, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Koreans are really starting to get hated around the world. Just look at Yemin. Koreans get killed just because they are such bad tourists.
I really hope Koreans will improve their actions overseas.
78 maruda // Mar 27, 2009 at 5:49 pm
“God descends on Ichiro! World two-peat for Samurai!,”
Koreans are logs.
79 maruda // Mar 27, 2009 at 6:00 pm
By the way, I am Korean and even I admit that Takeshima is Japanese island. I will my countrymen would not try and steal from others.
80 hansioux // Mar 27, 2009 at 8:01 pm
Best way to resolve disputes over uninhabited islands is to buy an V8 SUV and drive around downtown for 8 hours everyday. Soon there won’t be an island left to fight about.
81 Hot News » Espn Wbc // Mar 28, 2009 at 1:54 am
[...] Netherlands – ESPN | ph4dge.com…Dominican Republic bounced from WBC by surprising Dutch – ESPN…How Korean Nationalism Cost it the WBC Crown |…Vancouver Canucks News » ESPN Research goes deep: WBC, NCAA Tourney Time & Top [...]
82 Nip the nips // Mar 28, 2009 at 2:12 pm
The funny thing about japs is how afraid they are of becoming Korea’s bitch. It will happen too because the Japanese spirit is all but depleted. America should have saved them the trouble and turned the whole island into a glass parking lot.
83 Dan // Mar 28, 2009 at 6:19 pm
“America should have saved them the trouble and turned the whole island into a glass parking lot.”
Why do Koreans always shout bad names at Japan and then run behind the skirt of the USA.
Oh ya, they are puss ies. Did you see that video of that puss Sun Il Kim? Screaming like a crybaby bit ch. Damn that is a funny video.
84 Euna // Mar 29, 2009 at 7:12 pm
eh, i’m half korean i was disappointed to see korea lose, but seriously. YOU WALK ICHIRO. My mom whose korean was literally screaming ‘STUPID KOREANS!’ But that game was intense… Um, yes, Japan did invade Korea like 5 times, but yeah they have apologized… and koreans weren’t the only ones treated bad, but anyways. I wasn’t terribly sad because over all Korea has won more games than Japan, and Korea has a better training system or something and that’s why American players go there to train, not Japan. Bother teams are very good, you can’t disagree with that.
85 Dan // Mar 29, 2009 at 7:44 pm
“Um, yes, Japan did invade Korea like 5 times”
Um no, not five times. But yes, about 400 years ago Korea was invaded. Time to get over it.
Korea is a nation of poor sports.
86 Fomen // Mar 29, 2009 at 11:48 pm
I’m half japanese and every day I contemplate killing myself because of it. Sure japanese have apologized many times, and koreans are bad sports, but it is just too much. Why are japanese so ugly I say to myself. 500 hundred years ago I think the koreans and japanese fight? that is not important because today i will smear dog shit on myself and put a frog in my gf’s vagina. that is the half japanese part.
87 Korean // Mar 31, 2009 at 10:11 am
Your other half must be Korean Fomen. Its clear now why you love to rub shit on your GF and are too much of a coward to kill yourself. Go eat some dog.
88 JYL // Apr 1, 2009 at 3:31 am
“Um no, not five times. But yes, about 400 years ago Korea was invaded. Time to get over it.”
————————————————————PLEASE LEARN THE HISTORY OF YOUR FUCKING COUNTRY FIRST.
89 DJ // Apr 1, 2009 at 3:44 am
Awesome! I wish I was Korean or Japanese. Then I could be this stupid.
90 Shinsano // Apr 1, 2009 at 4:18 am
Well said DJ. I’ve always thought it would be fun to have a blog where certain stories generate as many as 100 comments. However, clearly the quality gets lost in the quantity.
91 HR // Apr 7, 2009 at 9:55 am
DJ you are right…
Hights of Stupidity = Korean.
92 KoreanChump // Apr 7, 2009 at 11:39 am
Koerans are dog eaters
93 DJ // Mar 28, 2010 at 7:56 am
A year later, and it turns out Aaron was right: Korean nationalism cost them the WBC. But it wasn’t Kim’s fault. It was the pitching coach who refused to give the walk sign.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/28/sports/baseball/28korean.html
I hope this can help revive the stupidest blog comment flame war of all time.
94 Taco, Cubed // Mar 29, 2010 at 3:14 am
its nowhere near as stupid as that cricket vs. baseball comment flame war
95 DJ // Mar 29, 2010 at 4:42 am
Maybe. But I’d say tiger v. lion takes a close second to this one.
96 Shinsano // Mar 30, 2010 at 3:08 pm
Thanks for posting that DJ. I would have missed it.
I have to say, I was pretty much dead on the mark with that one, although, I still have to wonder if someone is lying about the miscommunication. If I had to guess it was still the manager’s call, and that even to this day the pitching coach is sacrificing himself for his boss.
But either way….nationalism did (at least in part) cost Korea the WBC.
And Taco, Cubed is a great name.
97 sab // Mar 30, 2010 at 4:08 pm
I’d be interested to see the TV program referenced in the TIMES article. Anyone know the Japanese title?
98 Mike McStay // Mar 30, 2010 at 7:53 pm
Sorry but a Hanwha fan, I still am not believing this story. It was well known in Daejeon that Kim was having a lot of health issues because he blew the call.
The question that I have is this, if the pitching coach refused to pass on the sign, then why didn’t the Manager, rush to the field, call time out or something.
I have watched the last inning a few times and the Korean bench isn’t showing any signs of panic about a missed managers call.
Sorry Kim In-shik, you blew it and you cost Korea the WBC title.
Leave a Comment