Wang Chien-Ming is the king of Taiwan.
Wang, whose name literally means “king” in Chinese, is Taiwan’s most revered and loved celebrity. The New York Yankees’ #1 starter is the first Taiwanese celebrity to achieve widespread international recognition (with the possible exception of filmmaker Ang Li, Madame Chiang Kai Shek and actress/Penthouse centerfold Hsu Chi), and a source of national pride every time he takes the hill for the storied New York Yankees.
And what�s not to love about a player that has emerged as the ace of the world�s most successful baseball franchise, finished second in the AL Cy Young voting to Johan Santana in 2006, starts charities to benefit underprivileged kids in his free time, and has even had the courage to boycott the bloodthirsty and reckless Taiwanese media since moving to New York?
Owing to his unusually composed demeanor, seemingly incorruptible personality on an island notorious for political corruption, and celebrity cache (that gives Taiwan the rare occasion to stick it China as the mainland siphons off its jobs and challenges its statehood), Wang takes center stage on a daily basis on the TV and in the papers. As a result, without a costly mlb.com package, baseball fans on the island have to get used to the following order of priorities: Wang Chien Ming first, The Yankees second, and baseball third.
Wang fever in Taiwan can reach absurd levels. ESPN in Taiwan re-runs every game he pitches in 4 or 5 times in a week, while remaining Yankee games broadcast two to three times a day while the vast majority of MLB games go untelevised. For fans on the island interested in the bigger picture of the game, pennant races, or teams outside of the AL East, it can get vexing watching the Taiwanese media lavish more attention on a single start from Wang (or Wang having a conversation with Ron Guidry in the dugout) than it does on, say, Barry Bonds breaking the all-time home run record. Save for the occasional Red Sox game featuring Matsuzaka, or a even rarer Dodgers game where Hong Chih Kuo invariably gets lit up, Yankees games are by and large the only exposure fans get to MLB.
One can well imagine the stunned silence, general confusion, and silent facial contortions of protest (as well as nasty emails) I get from Taiwanese baseball fans when I make the following outrageous claims: Wang at this stage of his career makes a very good #2 pitcher for a successful rotation but has not yet developed the qualities of a true staff ace, the jury is still out on his long term value, and the oft-cheerleading media and fans have jumped the gun a bit by placing Wang in the top tier of starting pitchers in MLB. I also get jeers when I suggest that fans in Taiwan, due 24/7 exposure in the media, conflate Wang�s historical and cultural importance with his actual talents on the field. Wang�s demeanor, high winning percentage, and league-best sinker certainly give him the potential to be mentioned in the same breath with Webb, Sabathia, and Johan, but he�s not there. Not yet.
Naysayer! Cynic! Playa Hater! (being pelted with stinky tofu)
First off, a fair assessment of Wang�s ability has to point to stats beyond his W-L record. Wang�s win totals are highly inflated due to an inordinate amount of run support�nearly 7 runs per game (6.8)�and excellent defensive support (The Yankee defense behind Wang, didn�t allow an unearned run in 47 consecutive innings, the longest such streak for a Yankee pitcher since the Elias Sports Bureau began tracking the stat in 1913). Every time Wang takes the hill the Yanks spot him 7 runs and never make any errors. This is a recipe for putting up a lot of wins regardless of who is on the mound.
Or, to quote a scout speaking on condition of anonymity who tried to sign Wang before he ended up on the Yankees, �”take Wang off the Yankees and put him on a weak-hitting team, and he�s a .500 pitcher”�.
Wang has other attributes that suggest that some of the fawning over his performance thus far might not be warranted yet. This year, left-handed hitters are hitting .283 against him. Since the All-Star break this year, Wang the king has put up a respectable 7-2 record, but has an average E.R.A. (4.50) and hitters are opposing hitters are hitting .296. To his credit, due to his high ground ball percentage, a lot of these runs get cancelled out in double plays, but putting that many runners on base could be a recipe for trouble come playoff time.
In fact, Wang�s stats this year are eerily similar to those put up by Greg Maddux at age 41, whom most statisticians and fans would describe as having a decent but unspectacular season in the twilight of his career. Maddux is regarded as the Padres #3 starter, certainly not their ace at this point. While it might not be the only factor in the equation, the extra 2 runs per game Wang receives in run support from the Bronx Bomber offense surely plays a big part in the 6 game difference in the win column:
Wang 166.1IP, 16 wins, 6 losses, 3.79 ERA, 86 K’s, 45BB’s, 1.27 WHIP
Maddux 168.2IP, 10 wins, 9 losses, 3.79 ERA, 89 K’s, 21BB’s, 1.20 WHIP
That’s not to say Wang doesn’t have the capability to be a true ace, in fact, he’s nearly there. With the league’s best sinker that Yankees pitching coach Ron Guidry compares to trying to hit a shot put, and a 96 MPH heater, there’s no denying the talent is in place. He’s young, he’s already won a ton of games, and has room to grow. But he’s not all the way there yet, and often times this gets lost in the shuffle as the Taiwanese media clamors to put up yet another full-page spread singing his praises.
__________________
More important than these statistical comparisons, the Taiwanese media, notorious for fabricating news stories and desperate to sensationalize anything they can in order to gain ratings–more than the unassuming Wang himself– can be blamed for the premature overhyping of the man of the hour. In Wang you have a highly marketable, good looking, reputable celebrity that�s tailor made to sell papers and merchandise.
But in the end, Taiwanese baseball fans, who might care more about the game itself with exposure to different teams, lose out in the end due to the disproportionate amount of airtime lavished upon Wang at this early stage in his career. They almost never get to see NL teams. They don�t get to see Pujols, Santana, Hanley, or even Bonds. This deprives them of the joy of seeing all the game�s stars, the thrill of pennant races, the ability to view baseball from a more objective perspective, and the perspective to see Wang within the greater overall context of the game.
Because of Wang’s success in pinstripes, Taiwanese fans have almost without exception embraced the Yankees as their favorite team. From an overall standpoint, if what matters to Taiwanese fans is that Wang has put Taiwan on the map and given them something to cheer for, that�s great. More power to them and to the king. But the ones that claim to be might want to be concerned about– not celebrating– the fact that king of Taiwan is the Yanks stopper, because it could be an indicator that the Bombers are going to war without a true #1, and in the playoffs they won’t be able to produce 7 runs a game. And if they love the game itself, they�ll have to dig a little deeper to find the Santanas, Sabathias, and Zambranos that the Taiwanese media fail to cover as they fall over themselves rushing to hail the King of Formosa.
88 responses so far ↓
1 King James // Sep 1, 2007 at 11:41 am
It’s similar here in Korea, but at least Wang is worth the media coverage…even if like you say he’s a No. 2 starter. I’d rather watch him than Kim Byung or….no one.
2 Michael // Sep 3, 2007 at 8:09 pm
Good article….the Cubs will win the WORLD SERIES!!!!
3 John // Sep 5, 2007 at 3:24 am
Good article, but a few points I would like to make.
Wang’s success has made many Taiwanese Wang fans, not Yankees fans. There are a lot of people who cheer for Wang and the Yankees whenever he pitches, but don’t care about the Yankees any other time.
Also, this might be me overreacting, but I had some issue with the use of”…after a long day at the factory.” It’s not like Taiwan is in an industrial age with most of the population working long hours in factories.
4 rilkefan // Sep 5, 2007 at 3:53 am
The defense behind Wang is not excellent according to serious statistical measures - counting errors is just silly. Cano is better than average when he’s not spacing out, A-Rod is fairly good when he’s not having trouble, some of the Yankees first basemen are good or good at some aspects of defense, and Posada is ok behind the plate, so except for the ss, whose first name might as well be Pastadiving, the infield defense is pretty good at best. Some ground balls go to ss though.
5 playoff-less in seattle // Sep 5, 2007 at 2:03 pm
good article. i agree with most of your assesements and your central point: wang has what it takes to be an ace, but there’s still a lot of room to grow. however, i would like to add an intangible quality that he has and should be credited for his success so far. he has the ability to pitch and win games in new york. some pitchers came to the big apple and could not get the job done. however wang has been winning since he got called up. igawa was a pretty established pitcher in japan before coming over, and he bombed in new york. randy johnson, while he didn’t fail completely in new york, was not as effective as expected of him. you can have all the run support in the world, but beyond having the right stuff, it takes some ace-like qualities to get the wins.
6 Rich // Sep 5, 2007 at 2:08 pm
Your comparison between Maddux and Wang overlooks the fact that Wang pitches in a league that uses a DH. Consequently, a 3.79 ERA is more impressive in the AL.
7 bymin // Sep 5, 2007 at 3:02 pm
Wang in Wins , ERA 2.11
so what?
8 Mike // Sep 5, 2007 at 3:10 pm
Great article. Fans of Wang should realize that an ace shouldn’t have an era in the plus 3.7s. This guy still has work to do and has yet to prove that he belongs in the class of Santana or Webb. If he had the run support of Daisuke, he’d be getting a .500 record right now.
9 Dislike // Sep 5, 2007 at 3:28 pm
First, I would like to apologize for the harrassments you got from some of the “Taiwanese fans”. I know it’s unfair that your professional was offended by some unresonable patriotism. On the other hand, I also felt offended while you compare Wang as an athlet with those celebrities. And your last comment shows that you know little about Taiwan. You, as a professional sport reporter, should have focus on the performance of the player not his fans from other country with much different culture background.
10 Andre // Sep 5, 2007 at 3:31 pm
How can you say that?It’s not fair to Taiwanese fans,it’s not fair to Wang.
He still has a long way to prove himself, but his performance deserves your respect. In fact, he is the New York Yankees#1 starter right now. Wang fans are not only Wang fans,most of them are Yankeesfans,too.
I don’t think it’s a good article at all. Most of that is prejudice and xenophobia.
11 SH // Sep 5, 2007 at 3:44 pm
I totally admit Wang is not in the same status as Santana or Webb. This is just his third year, and he grow up steadily. Except it, you can evaluate or even criticize a player, but how can you describe that Taiwanese cheer for after a long day at the “factory”. It just show how you don’t know about Taiwan so that you can’t persuade people in other part of the article. Please justify it and do not blindfold what you want to reveal in your comment.
12 Dan // Sep 5, 2007 at 4:27 pm
What a poor article you’re writing about? How much do you know about Wang? how much do you know about Taiwan? How MUCH do you know about MLB IN TAIWAN? That’s WANG in TAIWAN. If there is not Wang in Yankees, MLB is only a weekly show. MLB means NOTHING to most of Taiwaness. Do MLB teams or organization promote MLB hardly in Taiwan? No. Do they make any effort or help to Taiwan? No. Then why do you think Taiwaness are going to know about Santana, CC and Zambronos? That is totally non-sense.
13 Leng // Sep 5, 2007 at 4:37 pm
Put Clemens in Yankees;did you see how many RS he got so far? Put Petitte into Yankees rotation; did you see how many RS he got? Do you admit that Celmens is a HOFer? Do you admit that Pettite is a better pitcher than Wang? Of course, both of them are far better than Wang. If not now, they were. Then why can you NOT recognize that Wang is so far the most stable and reliable pitcher in Yankees rotation? Even in the high RS, that’s a kind of encouragement. Put Wang into a weak team then you will see Wang a 0.500 pitcher? what the HXXL is your comment? When Wang is On the mount, he can encourage to his team, that’s what Wang is doing. Wang got LATE SUPPORT and Yankees won. That’s no doubt Wang kept the pace then wait for the bombers to regain waht they are supposed to be. If Wang can’t hold the line, Yankees should pack thier package right now. You idiot stupid reporter should eat your words.
14 jurrasic // Sep 5, 2007 at 5:08 pm
Too bad a quality article is ruined by your thoughtless comment of “after a long day at the factory.” If you reside in Taiwan you should know better Taiwan’s GDP and the general working condition in Taiwan. Leave the imperialism discrimination out of baseball.
Your article also suffers from logical flaws.
First, nobody ever seriously contended that Wang is up to the same height as Webb, Sabathia or Johan. Most Taiwaneses don’t even (need to, or care to) know who they are. You are “attacking the straw man that you setup yourself.” Nobody is contending not because Wang does not have the talent, which you admitted he does. It is because Webb’s achievements could not be attained without the test of time. Wang has played only three seasons. In other words, your logic is circular: Wang is “not there yet” because no one could “be there” until playing as long as those you have high respect of.
Second, I believe (as groundless as your belief) that most Taiwaneses consider themselves Wang fans, not Yankee fans. Therefore, your assumption that “if they are true Yankee fans” again is putting words in Taiwaneses’ mouth and attacking another straw man that you set up.
Similarly, there is no reason Taiwaneses need to pay more attention to Barry Bonds or any NL team than they like to. As an MLB fan I agree it is a loss to people who don’t have a chance to see many other gams played everyday. But I respect people’s free will and do not try to dictate what sport they should prefer, just as I respect Americans’ passion for American football and their ignorance of football (soccer). It is football’s success to attract American fans by introducing Beckham to US; it is not Americans’ fault that they don’t care about football beyond Beckham.
Third, you argued Wang is “not there” as a true ace b/c of his high run support, high opposing batting average, and Yankees’ exceptional defense behind him. These are valid points well-discussed and well-taken (although it is weird that you argue high DP rate is a disadvantage). I don’t know what your standard of “top tier starting pitcher in MLB” is. I just like to point out that (a) Wang is pitching in the AL east; Maddux is pitching in the NL west; (b) Maddux is No. 3 in Padres b/c Padres occupies three spots in the top 15 ERA in National League; I see no shame of Wang holding the same spot in the AL ERA ranking (#13 as of today).
15 Romulus // Sep 5, 2007 at 5:14 pm
Good article.
Wang is overheat in Taiwan, especially on some forums. Every “Wang is not that good as you say” or “Wang is not an ace yet” will get plenty of criticize.
16 Tochter // Sep 5, 2007 at 5:24 pm
Good points.
But bear in mind that Maddux pitches in the NL and Wang in the AL East(!).
17 Taiwan Wang // Sep 5, 2007 at 5:24 pm
Good article, but I agree with John’s point.
As a Taiwanese fan there are some points I want to say:
1.there are lots of people like me, if Wang was Boston’s pitcher, then we will become redsox’s fan immediately, so the priority should be WANG, baseball and then the team he belongs to.
2.it’s true that Wang has room to grow to become CY, but at present he is still the ace without any doubt. the aspect of “run support” is not exactly fare to WANG. if u watch seriously u’ll find that the ERA is much lower when WANG gets win. The reason why the ERA is not good enough now is he lost too many runs during few inings when he lost.
18 baseball fan // Sep 5, 2007 at 6:05 pm
Please! U forget DHs, that’s why 3.7plus ERA is acceptable for an ACE in AL.
I feel offended by your comment on how long we Taiwanese people work. You don’t understand at all. We change our way of lives for 15years. We put much emphasis on personal leisure time.
I believe that Wang has a long way to go. NOW? He is truly Yankees’ ACE. A Silent Ace.
19 sausage // Sep 5, 2007 at 6:17 pm
you are not taiwanese,you don’t know taiwan’s enviornment.
there are a lot of corruptible politicians in news every day.
taiwan’s degree is very low in the wrold.
many American assume that Wang is Japanese or Chinese……
your comment proves one thing:
through you teach English in this island, you aren’t know TAIWAN
20 Taiwan // Sep 5, 2007 at 6:26 pm
This article only describes the little part of whole thing.
It’s not all yours(American) faults. After all, you are not
Taiwanese.
Why I said so?
If you know the Taiwan’s situation in internation, you’ll
know why we so like Wang.
Your(American) officer said that Taiwan or ROC are NOT a country some days ago.
Do you understand how it deeply hurt Taiwanese?
You banned Taiwan enter into UN(United Nation).
Taiwanese cannot be protected with UN.
The Taiwan posititon in the world are ignored for a long time.
Do you ever concern Taiwanese? NO.
You claimed you are the justice of the world.
We never feld.
In your mind, only your benefits is the most important.
Do you know why Taiwanese so like Wang now?
Wang lets Taiwan be seen.
For us, it more significant than the wins for Yankees.
21 C.C // Sep 5, 2007 at 6:31 pm
<p>The article provides lots of opinion and data. The criticism of media and politics is trenchant. I also agree with the reports about Wang are too much and unfair.(maybe ESPN taiwan just want to earn more money to pay the premium) </p>
<p>However, the article also show your bias and discrimination, it’s very ridiculous that taiwanese people NEED to care MLB star like Bonds or Santana. You can’t ask for everybody in every place NEED to know all MLB teams or to realize all star’s background, it’s too arrogant.</p>
may god bless you</p>
22 jackson // Sep 5, 2007 at 8:41 pm
First of all, thanks to all of the readers who took the time and energy to reply to “All Hail the King?”. 26 responses-nearly 20 in the span of a few hours– is far more than I had anticipated since our blog has been in publication for less than two weeks. Response has been varied-some replies praised the piece, some found some of the content objectionable, and some have have taken issue with the statistical arguments raised baseball-wise, so I’ll try to address each issue independently. Baseball content is addressed in a new post coming in a couple of hours.
When Aaron and I started this blog little more than a week and a half ago, our intention was to create a discussion between baseball fans in East Asia and those in the West, and to introduce baseball in Asia to audiences accustomed to MLB who might not have followed it otherwise. To those ends, we are delighted to see that that has succeeded. Less fortunately, one of our objectives was to undertake an analysis of Asian baseball-minus some of the stupid cliches that invariably arise in Western coverage of Asian baseball or stars that emerge into MLB. (This will be tackled in an upcoming post by Aaron Shinsano). We wanted to start a blog that didn’t have to bring up haikus or zen every time Matsuzaka’s name was raised, and that tried to provide objective coverage to the extent it was possible. To those ends, several readers have pointed out that I did not succeed in this article:C.C., Jurassic, SH, and John, took offense or noted an objection to the use of the term ‘factories’.
“The article provides lots of opinion and data. The criticism of media and politics is trenchant. I also agree with the reports about Wang are too much and unfair.(maybe ESPN Taiwan just want(s) to earn more money to pay the premium)
However, the article also show(s) your bias and discrimination, its very ridiculous that Taiwanese people NEED to care MLB star like Bonds or Santana. You cant ask for everybody in every place NEED to know all MLB teams or to realize every stars background, its too arrogant.
after a long day at the factory the word factory also offended me. I will appreciate that if your can hide your superiority complex and try to respect the poeples likes and dislikes.”
-C.C.
“Too bad a quality article is ruined by your thoughtless comment of after a long day at the factory. If you reside in Taiwan you should know better Taiwans GDP and the general working condition in Taiwan. Leave the imperialism (and) discrimination out of baseball.
Similarly, there is no reason Taiwanese need to pay more attention to Barry Bonds or any NL team than they like to. As an MLB fan I agree it is a loss to people who dont have a chance to see many other games played everyday…But I respect peoples free will and do not try to dictate what sport they should prefer, just as I respect Americans passion for American football and their ignorance of football (soccer). It is footballs success to attract American fans by introducing Beckham to US; it is not Americans fault that they dont care about football beyond Beckham.”
-Jurrasic
” …How can you describe that Taiwanese cheer for after a long day at the factory. It just show(s) how you dont know about Taiwan…”
-SH
“Also, this might be me overreacting, but I had some issue with the use ofafter a long day at the factory. Its not like Taiwan is in an industrial age with most of the population working long hours in factories.”
-John
C.C., John, SH, and Jurrasic each made a valid point, and I apologize if I presented an inaccurate or cliched depiction of the Taiwanese labor force, or if those comments were construed as ‘imperialist’, ‘discriminatory’, or showing cultural arrogance of some sort. Obviously Taiwan’s economy is not limited to factory production–Taiwan’s economy long ago made a transition to different and more lucrative forms of industry. TSMC, where my girlfriend works, being one of countless examples of this. People make money and spend their time in all kinds of ways here. I apologize if I painted a misleading or essentialized picture of the Taiwanese economy or workforce, or the individuals involved in it, or if my comment came off as insensitive or arrogant.
As far as the other objection goes-that it’s arrogant to assume Taiwanese people should care about MLB-I don’t think I said that they should. People obviously can like whatever they want. But what is strange to me is that Wang is one of over 700 players currently playing in Major League Baseball, and one of ten or more playing in a game at any given time, and that there is an inordinate amount of focus placed on him without taking into account the greater context of the game. I don’t think its unfair to describe this as excessive or myopic. Wang doesn’t pitch in a vacuum, and to take that argument further, the Yankees don’t exist in a vacuum either. It’s hard for me as a baseball fan to try to fathom the idea of simply cheering for an individual player, regardless of his (or her) cultural significance. This is where I think it’s important to distinguish between Wang the celebrity and media hyped, and Wang the pitcher, and I do think that line gets blurred.
I will reply to other comments in an upcoming post. thanks again for reading-your feedback and opinions are valued (even the insulting ones!).
23 Zheng // Sep 5, 2007 at 11:45 pm
This article is about Wang. Not the Taiwan economy. Get over it.
24 IronChef // Sep 6, 2007 at 1:03 am
I LOLed at the article.
It almost saddens me that I have to agree with a foreigner on this issue. The Taiwanese media is being run by a bunch of big-money corporations who 1) care about nothing but the bottom line 2) wouldn’t know what ethics were if I ripped that page from a Webster’s Dictionary and shoved it their collective asses 3) hire a bunch mindless attractive 25 year old girls to attract audiences and do everything their corporate overlords command.
It’s almost dare I say, American.
Wang is a good pitcher, being an overseas Taiwanese person, I like him. He’s a good guy, he’s a family man, he’s never stolen laptop computers from retarded kids, flown planes into buildings, or done coke, but the media needs to stop fellating him and leave him the F!@# alone. The people need to stop worshipping him as a God and just leave him the F!@# alone. He’s just a man trying to feed his family. Irrational Nationalism in Sports belong in INTERNATIONAL play, not professional leagues where athletes are just trying to make a living.
Of course, I say this as a Red Sox fan, public enemy #1.
P.S. Over/under on the posts before I am accused of pandering to the White man. Because it’s cool to talk big behind a keyboard and accuse people of being weak, all the while bending over backwards when they see a White dude on the street.
Not all foreigners in Taiwan are bad. Just the jackasses I start incidents with on the NTU soccer field. And there are some very good English teachers in Taiwan, a friend (hot girl!) taught here for a year last year, she was very well qualified and wanted some new life experiences. Of course, there are some yellow-fever d-bags who couldn’t cut it back home, but that comes with the territory.
Some of the commentary’s grammar is pretty loltastic btw.
25 Joe // Sep 6, 2007 at 1:30 am
Some valid points, however, the writer states the following.
“Every time Wang takes the hill the Yanks spot him 7 runs and never make any errors”.
Does the writer actually believe the run support and the better defense has nothing to do with Wang?
26 mark // Sep 6, 2007 at 4:30 am
never, ever compare anyone in the quad a national league west to a pitcher in the american league east. Wang is one of the top pitchers in baseball. e.r.a in the mid threes. Nastiest sinker in baseball. No he is not Santana or Sabathia. But to compare him to a pitcher in the national league. Go ask Jake Peavy when he was picking up his ass against boston in interleague.
27 IronChef // Sep 6, 2007 at 8:23 am
[i]Does the writer actually believe the run support and the better defense has nothing to do with Wang?[/i]
Ummm… yes? This IS the American League. I don’t see Wang putting up Carlos Zambrano-esque efforts where he’s putting up his own run support.
28 LoL // Sep 6, 2007 at 12:52 pm
Ironically, Mariners just can’t hit Wang’s pitching. (remember that Wang is 5-0
29 country people // Sep 6, 2007 at 1:48 pm
Thank you for your comment.
For an foreigner, I’m glad that you’re concerned about Taiwan’s situation.
You know why we love Wang so much?
Because Taiwanese media are sucks.
Our politics are sucks.
Our diplomacy are sucks.
Every thing you’ve heard about Taiwan recently are sucks
,except Wang.
Baseball is our one of the most popular sports , but it’s hard to show our baseball to the world, because we’re such a small island. But wang did it.
Yes, Taiwanese media sucks, everybody knows it.
But distinct to you, We are glad to see Wang day by day.
The more Wang, the less politics, the less paparazzi.
We can do anything to our politics or media? Nothing!!!
So we choose Wang, we watch him every five days,
and concerning his news day by day.
We’re crazy about him, and so what? I don’t feel any inappropriate, I’m glad to.
It doesn’t matter he is ace or something.
Even the truth is, he is yankees’s ace right now.
Just because we love our land taiwan so much, and most of all, we love baseball so much, we love to see Wang nodoubtly.
30 curios cat // Sep 6, 2007 at 2:31 pm
“Irrational Nationalism in Sports belong in INTERNATIONAL play, not professional leagues where athletes are just trying to make a living” —Ironchef
Good point, but I wonder how many Japanese will be
mariners or redsox fan if ichiro, dice-k or okajima went
to other teams.
31 unearned_run mean // Sep 6, 2007 at 4:13 pm
and excellent defensive support (The Yankee defense behind Wang, didn?t allow an unearned run in 47 consecutive innings, the longest such streak for a Yankee pitcher since the Elias Sports Bureau began tracking the stat in 1913).
Every time Wang takes the hill the Yanks spot him 7 runs and never make any errors.
————–
That’s wrong.
never make any errors? The writer Should check it..
or he doesn’t know what unearned_run mean..
32 ardee // Sep 6, 2007 at 5:46 pm
>>>>>and league-best sinker certainly give him the potential to be mentioned in the same breath with Webb, Sabathia, and Johan, but he?s not there. Not yet.
oh, really?? The names mentioned-above except Santata, what did they do??? Oh, that’s right, Webb won CY Young last year…but that’s the national league, and he won only 16 games…. What did others do in their career that makes people like you considered they are more superior than Wang???
When you considered yourself as a very knowledgable baseball fan, that’s odd that you even compare pitchers from both leagues in the same santance.
and one more thing, since you are a high profile baseball fan, I assumed that you realized that New York is a place with high presures which only warrior can survive on and off the field. Obivious, I was wrong. You know nothting but bias.
Just go away, you hater.
33 IronChef // Sep 6, 2007 at 6:24 pm
oh, really?? The names mentioned-above except Santata, what did they do??? Oh, that’s right, Webb won CY Young last year…but that’s the national league, and he won only 16 games…. What did others do in their career that makes people like you considered they are more superior than Wang???
What has Brandon Webb done in his career? I don’t know, only have better *ERA+ in EVERY SINGLE SEASON OF THEIR RESPECTIVE CAREERS. And *ERA+ is league and park adjusted, so don’t throw that “national league inferiority” krap around here. Also, there was that streak thing recently, what was that again? you tell me.
Good point, but I wonder how many Japanese will be
mariners or redsox fan if ichiro, dice-k or okajima went
to other teams.
Seattle has a huge Japanese/Japanese American population, so if they were interested in baseball, they’d most likely be Mariners fans anyway. And the Mariners have been employing Japanese players for a long time, Ichiro is only one example. Sasaki had a good run there, and Hasegawa was solid for a long time too.
Helps when the owner is Japanese.
There aren’t that many japanese Red Sox fans that I know of. Hideo Nomo threw a no-hitter for us once, that was fantastic.
34 jackson // Sep 6, 2007 at 8:30 pm
What has Brandon Webb done? Lets see, only threw 42 consecutive scoreless innings this year. 2 Time All Star. Cy Young Award Winner.
What has Sabathia done? 3 time All-Star, 17-5 in his rookie season, far outpitched Wang this year with much less fanfare.
What did others do in their career that makes people like you considered they are more superior than Wang???
More hardware, longer track records of successful pitching, win games for teams with offenses less prolific than the vaunted Yankee offense, post better earned run averages, give up fewer baserunners per nine innings, pitch to left handed hitters more effectively, strike out more batters. And I didn’t say I think they’re superior to Wang, I said Wang has more to prove before he can be considered to be in the same class as them because these pitchers have longer records of pitching successfully. In the article, I said Wang is almost there. If Wang continues to pitch effectively like now for a couple more years, he deserves the recognition these pitchers get.
Facts, not bias.
Thanks for the comment.
35 jackson // Sep 6, 2007 at 8:37 pm
Definition of Unearned run
1. Noun. A run that was scored as a result of an error by the other team.
The Yanks gave Wang 47 consecutive innings of error-free defense, the most for a Yankee pitcher since 1913. Pretty good.
Other readers have justly pointed out though that there are other factors besides errors that need to be accounted for in assessing fielding, particularily defensive range. One reader humorously pointed out that Robinson Cano spacing out from time to time causes problems, but I don’t think a stat has been devised yet to measure spacing out defensively. DSPO?
thanks for the comment.
36 seems0728 // Sep 6, 2007 at 11:26 pm
lol
Wang in Wins , ERA 2.11
Wang in Wins , ERA 2.11
Wang in Wins , ERA 2.11
Wang in Wins , ERA 2.11
Wang in Wins , ERA 2.11
Wang in Wins , ERA 2.11
Wang in Wins , ERA 2.11
Wang in Wins , ERA 2.11
Wang in Wins , ERA 2.11
Wang in Wins , ERA 2.11
Wang in Wins , ERA 2.11
Wang in Wins , ERA 2.11
Wang in Wins , ERA 2.11
Wang in Wins , ERA 2.11
lol
37 jackson // Sep 6, 2007 at 11:55 pm
<p>That has to be the most idiotic stat I’ve ever seen.</p>
<p>Edwin Jackson, TB: Pitches in AL East.<br />
E.R.A. in Wins: 1.00</p>
<p>Um, you have to count the runs pitchers give up when they lose or get no decisions, too.</p>
<p>crikey.</p>
38 seems0728 // Sep 7, 2007 at 12:03 am
lol
2007
Tampa Bay Devil Rays 4 13 5.78
2007 17 6 3.68 26 26
lol
39 jackson // Sep 7, 2007 at 12:20 am
Avg. # of runs scored in Wang’s 16 wins: 9.3
In 14 of Wang’s 16 wins, the Yankees have scored 6 or more runs.
Nice work if you can get it. Ask Roy Oswalt if he enjoys run support like that. Oh, wait, let me guess, Wang is better than Oswalt, too.
40 Thomas // Sep 7, 2007 at 2:05 am
I feel that using “run support” to evaluate a pitcher is only fair if that pitcher has an ERA of over 4.00. At 17 wins, he has as many wins as a few other pitchers. Have you checked their run support? I know that Josh Beckett of the Red Sox’s has very good run support from that teams offense.
It’s like saying that I won 25 games with a 3.75 ERA but my run support is 7 runs per game, because I have a great offensive team, therefore I am not very good, not an ACE!!!!!!
41 jackson // Sep 7, 2007 at 2:35 am
I’m not sure why you think run support only counts if a pitcher has a high ERA. Logic dictates that if a pitcher with a 5.00 ERA receives 9 runs a game in run support (this seems like an exaggerated figure but, incredibly, its what Wang receives in his victories), he (or at least his team) will win more and lose fewer games than a pitcher with a 5.00 ERA that receives 4 runs per game.
To give a real life example of this, take Nolan Ryan in 1987. Ryan went 8-16, a rather poor record, despite striking out 270 batters, posting a 1.13 WHIP and a 2.76 ERA. His win-loss record obviously reflected something beyond his own performance, either incredibly bad luck, poor offensive support, or both.
As far as this years AL pitchers that you could make at least a semi-reasonable argument for considering as a staff ‘ace’–(i’ve omitted Seattle closer J.J. Putz and NL pitchers to satisfy our readers that hold the bizarre belief that NL pitchers can’t be compared to AL pitchers)–the stats for run support read like this:
Verlander: 7.56
Wang: 7.10
Beckett: 6.75
Escobar: 5.93
Halladay: 5.89
Sheets: 5.89
Wakefield: 5.75
Sabathia: 5.67
Haren: 5.32
Lackey: 5.17
Santana: 5.01
Bannister: 4.91
Bedard: 4.60
Carmona: 4.48
Now, clearly run support is only one of many factors that determine whether or not a pitcher wins, gets a no decision, or loses. No single statistic can be cited as a sole determinant of success or failure. But it can be used as a means of comparing performances regardless of how high or low a pitcher’s ERA is. A perfect illustration of this is a comparison between Erik Bedard and Wang. Bedard has unquestionably outpitched Wang this year, any honest comparison of their statistics reads that. So the fact that Bedard has put up a similar record to Wang’s despite receiving 2.5 less runs per game is certainly fair to cite when evaluating their performances. It may not be the ONLY thing to consider, but you have to consider it.
Again, obviously getting lots of run support is not the only reason Wang wins. He’s nasty. He has the best sinker in baseball and a 96 plus fastball that he locates well. When he keeps the ball down, he’s untouchable at times. On the other hand, this year in both leagues there are pitchers who AT THIS POINT IN THEIR CAREERS are pitching more effectively but win less games at least in part because they have weaker offenses behind them. Santana, in an ‘off year’, or the relatively unheralded Brian Bannister for the Royals, what would their records look like if they received 7 runs a game in run support? Similarly, if Wang pitched for Kansas City, what would his win loss record be? It obviously makes a difference, even if the pitchers have sub 4.00 ERAs.
Beckett does receive excellent run support as well, but I would say his overall numbers and performance this year are superior to Wang’s.
42 Thomas // Sep 7, 2007 at 3:20 am
I think that Wang is the Yankees best winning pitcher the last few years. He does pitch deeper into a game than most and does win after a yankee lost more than anyone on the team, that is why many think he is an ACE but to tell you the truth, many clubs do not have a “true” ace anymore. Bullpens have taken over so much that pitchers do not go more than 5-6 innings any more. This has led to a pitching mentality that says..I can “pitch around” hitters until I only pitch to the ones I can handle. So, they throw their limit of 100 pitches in 6 innings and it’s a night. God forbid you throw more than 100.
Gibson and Seaver were true ACES.
It’s also possible to have a 2.00 ERA and have a RS of 7. If I can win 7-2 in each game, all year, that is what I can get. There are many other stats to use in the evaluation of any pitcher, just as you say.
43 jason // Sep 7, 2007 at 4:58 am
Maybe he should go to another team to try “a .500 pitcher” whether as Seattle Mariners scout (or it’s yourself) quote.let yankees find an other extremely high win a rate candidate.How this is?You can be more comfortable,Master.
44 vacuumguitar // Sep 7, 2007 at 6:10 am
As a Taiwanese, I want to apologize for those insult comments from our people…
From my point of view, it’s not a good idea to discuss the Taiwanes media and the Taiwanese fans at the same time…Because Taiwanese hate their media too…people would think you want to criticize Taiwanese fans as you criticize those media. The suck behaviors of the media are not our fault…
If I didn’t miss the main idea of your article, you criticized the Taiwanese media, not the Taiwanese fans(although the words sounds a little bit acerbic…), but I guess you just want to encourage Taiwanese fans to pay more attetion to other good MLB players.
But I need to point out that, before Wang was called up, few people care about the MLB. Therefore, you can take it as a good begining…at least we pay more attention to YOUR baseball league.
If you take a look at how MUCH effort the MLB did to promote there games to Asia, you wouldn’t have been too harsh to Taiwanese fans…Without Wang, MLB is just a foreign baseball league, means little to most Taiwanese baseball fans.
If I were to write this article, I would use a better way to promote the AMERIAN baseball league to Taiwanese fans.
As for the media, I wish I could say that they are not part of Taiwan…
The Wang fever in Taiwan comes with good reason, but might seems irrational to you. We believe that a successful man must be a man with good personality as well as good attitude. Those are what matters. It doesn’t only matter how well does he play on the mount, but the way he success(to pitch in MLB is already a success to us).
As a result, Wang has become a symbol as well as an honor of Taiwan. Base on these, there’s no doubt why Taiwanese people love him so much, and ignore the rest of the MLB, because most of them wouldn’t watch MLB if there weren’t any Taiwanese player. What do you expect?
So, the performance of Wang is about sport, but the reason of the Wang fever is mainly not about sport, it’s about culture, identity, and the support for a good way to success. People here want themselves and their children to succeed like Wang in many different fields, so they love him, and NEED him to be good.(He is the idol.)
I’d like to discuss with you if you are curious about it, but like I just said, it’s not mainly about sport…
ps…
Maybe I can say, most people turn on the TV just to see Wang wins, see Wang succeed. Therefore we can share the pride, and give us more confidence to deal with the we-must-survive, we-must-succeed situation of our country in the world.
The people here do need this.
45 a Taiwanese-Chinese // Sep 7, 2007 at 9:01 am
“the Taiwanese media, notorious for fabricating news stories and desperate to sensationalize anything they can in order to gain ratings–more than the unassuming Wang himself”
hahaha~like we say in Chinese–it’s a “bloody needlepoint”!
I think you’re also right about Wang’s not yet #1 and still has some way to go. But this just belies your other point that compares him with Maddux. Doesn’t it?! You see, Maddux is 41 with his days numbered, Wang 27 with a whole world in front of him. Besides, they have a 16-10 wins’ difference and it shouldn’t be attributed solely to good, not excellent, defense.
Anyway, to be an ace, you must have the inner strength that makes the ace, right? That’s what Wang makes us feel proud and himself outstanding.
46 Arc // Sep 7, 2007 at 10:34 am
Ok, Let’s see each game of Wang Wins.
5/5 SEA 8.0IP 1ER 8:1
5/16 @CWS 7.0IP 1ER 8:1
5/21 BOS 6.1IP 2ER 6:2
6/1 @BOS 5.2IP 3ER 9:5
6/6 @CWS 9.0IP 1ER 5:1
6/12 ARI 7.0IP 1ER 4:1
6/17 NYM 8.2IP 2ER 8:2
7/03 MIN 7.0IP 0ER 8:0
7/08 LAA 6.1IP 0ER 12:0
7/14 @TB 6.0IP 3ER 6:4
7/24 @KC 6.0IP 4ER 9:4
7/29 @BAL 6.0IP 3ER 10:6
8/3 KC 7.0IP 1ER 7:1
8/19 DET 6.0IP 3ER 9:3
8/25 @DET 8.0IP 1ER 7:2
8/30 BOS 7.0IP 0ER 5:0
9/4 SEA 7.1IP 1ER 12:3
0ER*3, 1ER*7, 2ER*2, 3ER*4, 4ER*1
Total IP: 118.1 Avg IP:6.96
ERA: 2.05
Yes. He got a lot run support. But each game of he wins. He was not allow many runs and go deep inning. So, can you accept that even he got lower run support, he also can win many games?
47 NyYfOrWs // Sep 7, 2007 at 11:25 am
I learned one thing from this article. Quality starts are nonsense in Baseball! RS is more important! And a pitcher should blame his team for hitting too hard!
48 dave // Sep 7, 2007 at 11:56 am
Well…
First off, I have to say its a very good article and precise to the point. But there are some unfair point such as the run support. I think looking from last season’s stat and this seasons…there were the few games that Wangs pitching really didn’t live up to his teamate’s performance. But overall, his stability and delivery still deserves some respect. As to whether or not he would be having a low ERA with the Red Sox I don’t know. But I’m certain that your assumption that he might be .500 is unfair…afterall, there were some low scoring games early on this season that would of gone the other way was it not for his stablility. Also you need to factor in his low pitch count in most games…that’s something that you gotta give him credit for.
As for the comment about long hours in the factory…I see where you’re coming from. For westerners, Taiwanese do in fact, have longer work hours. Especially the hi-tech workers…
But I have to say, nice artical overall…
49 IronChef // Sep 7, 2007 at 12:08 pm
We could just use stats which involve the neutralizing of contexts (peripherals, *ERA+, VORP if you’re into the whole “mysterious baseball prospectus formulas” thing), but nah, let’s talk about team dependent stats!
Btw, the defensive and hostile commentary around here is quite a sight. I had to go back and read the article twice, because I thought I missed a paragraph where the original author compared him to Es Lima Time or something. “Not as good as Brandon Webb” is not an insult. Do you know how many legitimate MLB players dream of being “just not as good as Brandon Webb”?
50 jackson // Sep 7, 2007 at 12:46 pm
just to say it again-I’m not making the obviously wrong claim that run support is the only thing that makes Wang effective. He pitches late into games, has excellent pitches, has a lot of poise, and as our readers pointed out, has a low ERA in games that he wins. However, I think on a common sense level, it has to be accepted that a pitcher receiving 7 runs a game in RS has a much better shot at winning than one who receives under 5, and that the number of runs a team scores affects a pitchers win totals. This seems hard to argue with.
Again, this isn’t to take away from the obviously strong qualitites that Wang has as a starter, but it has to factor in at some point. I think it probably helps pitchers out mentally too, knowing that you don’t have to be perfect but you can go out and just do your job, put in 6-7 innings of above average pitching and you’re set.
And I think Iron Chef hit the nail on the head-being one of the top, say, 20 major league pitchers instead of being in the top 10 is no small accomplishment! Even if wang isn’t in the #1A elite tier of pitchers yet, he’s still done and accomplished remarkable things, put Taiwan on the map baseball wise, and emerged into a legit starter. Not being as good as Santana is hardly an insult, hardly anyone (if anyone) is.
51 Noa // Sep 7, 2007 at 1:07 pm
the article has its points, some, and bias, some.
However, I don’t think we could rate any player solely by stat, RS or ERA or any figure. I agree with a Taiwanese-Chinese. What makes a player great comes from inner strength.
Btw, I think the defensive and hostile commentary around here probably comes from cultural and geographical difference. I must say most of us don’t know the games start at 7:00am or 1:00am in Taiwan. And there are Red Sox fans in Taiwan too. So, hey, let’s not see things just from our side.
oh, does the host really delete some comments? I’ve read all the comments and find some seem not finished yet…
52 jackson // Sep 7, 2007 at 2:08 pm
<p>Regarding the erasing/non-appearance of certain posts: Unfortunately, due to certain posts being overtly hostile, vitriolic, offensive, very far off the topic, or simply having nothing constructive to offer the conversation, we had to turn on comment moderation on the site and we’ve had to start editing and/or deleting certain posts. Neither of us wanted to do this-actually its more work for us as we write other articles. but in some cases it’s necessary.</p>
<p>As readers can see however, basically any comment that’s within reason and not overtly vitriolic, offensive, off the topic, or some combination thereof will get posted. it’s not a matter of editing criticism; almost all the posts that have been quite critical of the article and/or disagreed with the original article have been left up. We just want to keep things constructive.
As a general rule, if readers want posts to appear-and the vast majority will, keep them on topic as often as possible, avoid doing things like say, threatening to kill the writer, offering unwanted relationship advice, or blatantly insulting people. And when possible try to avoid those stupid computerisms like writing “lol” 200 times, as that stuff will probably get erased.
</p>
<p>Also, some posters have put up multiple posts basically saying the same thing in different ways, so in those cases we’ve left the more effective one up there. Hopefully we’ll be able to take moderating off, but for now this has to be the way it is to keep the board flowing smoothly. Also, if a post you submit gets deleted, don’t take it as a sign we’re not interested in hearing from you. Just retool it and keep it more on point.
</p>
<p>thanks for understanding this.</p>
53 IronChef // Sep 7, 2007 at 6:25 pm
What the hell is wrong with working long hours in a factory? It’s not like our CHILDREN are working long hours in a factory for slave labour. Taiwan’s factories for the most part are high-tech, safe, productive, and help sustain many families. Health care workers work ridiculously long hours. Why does the phrase “working long hours in a hospital” not carry a negative connotation?
Implying that Taiwanese people work hard a their blue collar jobs is not insulting to us. In fact, I take pride in my country and my fellow citizens for working to produce and design many of the World’s High tech goods and consumer electronics.
We don’t have sweatshops.
54 Noa // Sep 7, 2007 at 8:23 pm
Hey, IronChef, you’re a Red Sox fan, aren’t you?
quote your words (sep,6) : “There aren’t that many japanese Red Sox fans that I know of. Hideo Nomo threw a no-hitter for us once, that was fantastic.”
So it seems you are potentially bias when it comes to Yanks, doesn’t it?
And : “Some of the commentary’s grammar is pretty loltastic btw.”
Wel, ummmmm, that’s pretty snobbish, especially came from a Taiwanese as you claimed.
Also, there’s nothing wrong with working long hours
if it’s needed. What’s wrong is the word “factory”. Check the definition. It’s a building for manufacturing products, hi-tech or not. And the implication between lines does seem insulting even to me, an American.
“…our intention was to create a discussion between baseball fans in East Asia and those in the West, and to introduce baseball in Asia to audiences accustomed to MLB.” jackson said(Sep 5, 8:41 pm).
Well, tackle with cultural difference/discrimination first, I think.
55 jackson // Sep 7, 2007 at 8:26 pm
<p>Allright, we’ve lost patience with the nonsense about the factory comment. It’s getting blown way out of proportion and this discussion is off the topic and not really very interesting at this point. It was a stupid, inaccurate, careless remark, it’s been discussed at length, revised in the article out of respect for those that took offense to it, and apologized for. People rightfully expressed their displeasure with this line, we acknowledged the mistake and the line was changed.
I think we’ve been more than fair in allowing posts that are highly critical of the article to stay up for a long time, and a lot of blogs would have erased them immediately. We left them up out of respect to our readers and because it generated an interesting discussion, but this discussion in no longer interesting or relevant. Objection noted and recognized, on to more important things. Let’s talk baseball.
</p>
<p>The issue on this topic is Wang and his place in the game, and media coverage of Wang Chien Ming and his nasty sinker. further comments off the topic will be moderated and disappear like they’re a Brad Lidge slider and my computer is Albert Pujols. </p>
56 jackson // Sep 7, 2007 at 8:49 pm
By the way, on the topic of language: Posts will NOT be edited or omitted on account of language mistakes-this blog values its readers whose first language is not English (I write Chinese at a second grade level at best, so I know how readers writing in a language that isn’t their native language feel trying to write in).
We have readers from all over the world with varying degrees of English ability, and every effort will be made to respect that. Now on to baseball.
57 IronChef // Sep 7, 2007 at 10:12 pm
{i>So it seems you are potentially bias when it comes to Yanks, doesn’t it?
It doesn’t matter what team I cheer for. The fact of the matter is that over teh intarwebs, the fanboys and fangirls have been annoying fans of EVERY SINGLE OTHER team in the MLB. We’re just public enemy #1.
Wel, ummmmm, that’s pretty snobbish, especially came from a Taiwanese as you claimed.
It’s really in response to some of the commentary I’ve been reading on PTT (The prominent BBS board here in Taiwan).
What’s wrong is the word “factory”.
There is nothing wrong with the word FACTORY. Industrialzed nations have factories! The US has factories! Everybody has factories! Our factories are good! They provide employment! My uncle is the manager at a factory, my cousin also works there, they both work hard and put in long hours. The only reason you see a negative connotation in “factory” is because you choose to put one there.
There’s discrimination, and there’s an inferiority complex.
However, I don’t think we could rate any player solely by stat, RS or ERA or any figure. I agree with a Taiwanese-Chinese. What makes a player great comes from inner strength.
That’s right, which is why when I evaluate pitchers, I choose to look at their scouting reports, raw ERA, raw peripherals, context neutral *ERA+, and fancy formulated things like VORP.
58 O.O // Sep 8, 2007 at 7:49 am
Wang had GREAT era(2.XX…hmmmm Ace or not?)when he got those wins. It means Wang does not need 7 runs support to win a game. So the high run support thing does not has any relationship with Wang’s wins.
If you want to tell people that pithcers can get more wins from the higher run support, try to find the right example and leave Wang alone.
Or you just want to say that Wang is NOT an ace? “For me,Wang is the CY winner” Posada said it last season. So I believe in Posada and Wang is the pitcher who has the stuff to win CY. Ace or not?Whatever you say…it is not important,because you are nobody in MLB.
59 jackson // Sep 8, 2007 at 2:48 pm
I might be nothing more than a casual baseball fan, but I can sense blind homerism when I see it. Suggesting Wang’s 2006 season was better than Santana’s is absurd-there’s no way to justify it, and my guess is Posada was probably supporting his teammate by saying that. What’s Posada gonna say? “Uh, Wang is a really good young pitcher but Santana is better.”
If you were the GM of a team and Santana pitched for your team, and someone offered you Wang in exchange for Santana, would you accept that trade?
I didn’t think so. Try to look past just the Yankees.
60 Noa // Sep 8, 2007 at 5:27 pm
So now we are talking only names?
OK then, Santana’s good, Webb’s good, Pettitte’s good, Beckett’s good, Wang’s good, etc.
But they are not GREAT, to me.
And among them, some will achieve my kind of greatness, and Wang will be one of them.
Again, what makes a player great comes from inner strength.
When we watch the games, try to look past just the stat or the moment. There are deeper things in a game, in a man. Look for it.
I enjoy watching sports, not just for the excitement
or the win-lose competition. I’m looking for some greatness that will move me, inspire contentment.
Sometimes they do. Sometimes Wang showed that inspiring greatness.
Well, that’s it.
61 jackson // Sep 8, 2007 at 6:34 pm
Now there’s a cool comment. That’s the way I feel about Kevin Garnett in the NBA, and as a Timberwolves fan it’s crushing that he got traded away, because he’s such a great person in addition to being a great NBA player.
62 jessica // Sep 8, 2007 at 8:44 pm
I am not going to go through the whole “Taiwan”issue again since a lot of people already brought it up.One more thing,I would like to mention.You can treat “Wang emerge in New York Yankees” is a starting point for most Taiwanese who don’t know what MLB is to get more interest on spending time on watching MLB games.For anything,Everyone need a starting point to start like something they don’t like before.Take my mom(almost 60-year-old lady) for example,My mom doesn’t know what baseball is all about before Wang make it to the big.I was a baseball fan since i am 13 year old.Every time I watch baseball ball game,my mom never show any interest at all.Right now,She ask me what the score is for Boston Red Sox and Yankee game everyday and stay up late with me for Wang’s game.This is my take.You don’t have to sound so harshly about this issue.
I am kind of sick and tired of keeping seeing these kind of repeated article about Wang(He can’t survive in big with low strikeout total.He is not Ace.He is not as good as another pitchers because of run support).People is intent to so easy on themselves and so hard on others.I don’t mean Wang is better than those pitchers you mention.As you said.Wang is still young and have some place to grow,but give people credit they deserve.As comparison to Greg Maddux and others pitcher.In my opinion,you only can compare pitchers who they are in the same League division,not just the difference between NL and AL.There are too many difference between each league and division.Among those great pitchers you mention,the only one you can compare Wang with is Josh Beckett.Both are all in the AL East.Obviously,the stat Josh Beckett put on in this season is much better than Wang put on this season.In my opinion,Wang bring more intangible stuff than Josh Beckett.I am not going to go through the whole “intangible stuff”.The most important thing for me is Wang always step out for yankees when they need him most.He delivery.That’s why he is a big game pitcher.Josh Beckett couldn’t do it since he join Red Sox.If there is big game we must win,I will take Wang every time for sure.
“Every time Wang takes the hill the Yanks spot him 7 runs and never make any errors.”The reason Wang didn’t allow unearned run in 47 consecutive starts(not innings) is not only his teammates playing good defense but also Wang can stay calm and walk out the jams when his teammates make errors behind.You said his teammates never make errors is not correct.Also,The reason Wang’s teammates play better defense behind him is Wang working fast and throwing strikes.As for run support,I think pitchers can effect how many runs he will get even though those pitchers in the AL.As a pitcher,when you always keep your team in game and barely give up the lead(no matter how many runs you get),your team will have a ton of confidence behind you and obviously will score more runs for you.They won’t feel the pressure they need to score tons of runs for you.They feel they get a chance to win every time when you take the mound.This is the Wang’s case.
You also have to consider what kind of circusmstance they score those runs for Wang.You should watch game more than watching stat.I want to take Sept 4 Mariners at Yankees game for example about Run Support.Yap.When you see final scoreline 12-3,you will say “See,how come Wang will lose this game.They score 12 runs for him”For those watch that game all know,Wang pitch first 6 inning with 1-0.Yankees put three runs on the bottom of 6th inning and put more 7 runs on the bottom of 7th inning,so Wang protect 1-run-lead for 6 inning until they score more for him.This game before is the Boston game vs Curt Schilling.Wang pitch the first 7 inning with 2-runs-lead.They score 3 runs more in the bottom of 8th inning.The game in May vs Mariners When Wang pitch 7 1/3 perfect game,the first 6 inning yankees only score 1 run for him.I can go on and on for this kind of examples.You will see a lot of those trend in Wang’s games if you pay attention on watching his games.Of course,he doesn’t do it every time,but who can.Wang’s ERA blow up for couple of really bad starts(one game vs Tortono 2.2IP 8ER;the other vs Texas 7ER). I know bad starts also count.That’s why I won’t argue with you,but other than those starts,Wang is pretty consistent.
63 Noa // Sep 8, 2007 at 9:23 pm
Hey, who are you talking to?@@@@@@@@
64 Noa // Sep 8, 2007 at 9:25 pm
Oh, sorry, you are jessica, not jackson.
Good point!
65 IronChef // Sep 8, 2007 at 10:19 pm
He can’t survive in big with low strikeout total.
The low-strikeout rate hypothesis was not made to custom-bash Wang. The low-strikeout rate/MLB survivability correlation was made by Bill James written in the Baseball Abstracts when it was published in 2001, before Wang made his debut in 2005 and the MLB started.
Josh Beckett couldn’t do it since he join Red Sox.
Jigga please, sure he was bad in 2006, but look at what he’s done thsi year. He goes deep into games, and he’s managed to keep the ball in the park. Also, 2003!!!
OK then, Santana’s good, Webb’s good, Pettitte’s good, Beckett’s good, Wang’s good, etc.
But they are not GREAT, to me.
And among them, some will achieve my kind of greatness, and Wang will be one of them.
Again, what makes a player great comes from inner strength.
Yet none of them will be as great as Pedro during his peak.
As comparison to Greg Maddux and others pitcher.In my opinion,you only can compare pitchers who they are in the same League division,not just the difference between NL and AL.There are too many difference between each league and division.
For frak’s sake, CONTEXT NEUTRALIZATION STATS. I know saying something multiple times and yelling it doesn’t make it true, but this is getting ridiculous.
also Wang can stay calm and walk out the jams when his teammates make errors behind.You said his teammates never make errors is not correct.Also,The reason Wang’s teammates play better defense behind him is Wang working fast and throwing strikes.
So does Roy Halladay. What’s your point?
Note: it’s an absolute ridiculous notion that run support is affected by the team’s own pitcher. Unless it’s the NL where the pitcher hits, those two things are completely independent.
So I believe in Posada
Well, he’s Puerto Rican, so he’s clearly biased!
66 Noa // Sep 9, 2007 at 12:44 am
“Well, he’s Puerto Rican, so he’s clearly biased!”
Where does this come from?
“Yet none of them will be as great as Pedro during his peak.”
Never ever say Never, young man.
“Note: it’s an absolute ridiculous notion that run support is affected by the team’s own pitcher. Unless it’s the NL where the pitcher hits, those two things are completely independent.”
It’s not an absolute ridiculous notion at all. If you ever been in a sports team, you should know that teammates affect one another, especially the key player.
And, when a man sensitive to superiority/inferiority,
it’s a sign of inferiority complex. Check it. It’s common psychology.
67 jessica // Sep 9, 2007 at 4:53 am
I know Josh Beckett has super stat(better than Wang’s stat)this year and win a lot of games,but do you pay attention on games he start this season against Yankee??Does he delivery when his team need most?I don’t think so.One more thing,How many times Josh Beckett get tons of runs support early part of ball game unlike Wang(get his run support late in the ball game).I am not going to keep talking about other pitchers compare with Wang.I would like to say they are all great pitchers no matter Josh Beckett or Roy Halladay.They deserve this credit.I mention this kind of comparison for emphasizing my choice.I will take Wang every time when a big game we must win.This article is about Wang,so keeping talking other pitchers is not the point.
He can’t survive in big with low strikeout total.I know where this come from.I know this doesn’t come out for Wang,but does everyone keep bringing this one up and talking it again and again.That’s why I Say I am sick of this.
My whole point is pitcher does effecting “defense” and “run support”.That’s the reason I disagree with this article
68 jessica // Sep 9, 2007 at 4:59 am
Dear Noa,
Thanks for supporting.What you said is exactly what i mean.You point out so clearly.Key player did effect his team.That’s why hitters seem perform better when they know they have their ACE on the mound on that day.
69 A.S. // Sep 9, 2007 at 9:24 am
Hi guys, I’m the other guy who does this site. I haven’t commented myself on this, but I just wanted to pop by and say thanks to everyone who’s be contributing…espeically recently. IronChef needs some kind of reader-of the-week-award and Jessica, consindering you’re not writing in your mother tongue, yet writing so much and so well, is amazing.
Jackson already said all this before, but you guys are getting this site off to a great start. Thanks to Noa, O.O, and everyone else above.
A.S.
70 a Taiwanese-Chinese // Sep 9, 2007 at 11:43 am
Well, let’s talk about stat and how they are counted, an important issue been widely debated.
For instance, ERA. UR shouldn’t be divided by 9 (innings), as of the standing method, but rather by the number of innings a pitcher actually did. Likewise, RS should be divided by the number of innings a pitcher actually did, not by 9.
The argument is that it’s more accurately show how a pitcher did. If so, well, then Wang’s stat will be much better. Um, give it a thought.
oh, btw, about the erasion issue, jackson explained your policy. it’s understandable.
71 IronChef // Sep 9, 2007 at 3:14 pm
do you pay attention on games he start this season against Yankee??
Hmm… maybe it’s because the Yankees have the best offense in the league.
It’s not an absolute ridiculous notion at all. If you ever been in a sports team, you should know that teammates affect one another, especially the key player.
“God I hate my starting pitcher. That guy is a huge douche! I’m going to throw away all 4 of my AB’s today and drop a flyball just because I hate the motherF!@3er!”
And, when a man sensitive to superiority/inferiority,
it’s a sign of inferiority complex. Check it. It’s common psychology.
Yeah, well, I took psych 101, I got a C. So it’s not exactly my area of expertise. But you know what they say about C students, we too can become the President of the United States of America.
He can’t survive in big with low strikeout total.I know where this come from.I know this doesn’t come out for Wang,but does everyone keep bringing this one up and talking it again and again.That’s why I Say I am sick of this.
To Wang’s credit, he does meet the criteria in which James states that could allow him to survive with that low K rate, which includes keeping the ball in the park, a very low walk rate, and holds the running game well.
Also, to a stats guy, if there was a ever a pitcher that was all balls-in-play and never produced a three-true-outcome, he’d be very good.
IronChef needs some kind of reader-of the-week-award
In about 3 weeks you’ll be wanting to get rid of me.
72 funny // Sep 9, 2007 at 4:08 pm
Mike Says: “If he had the run support of Daisuke, he’d be getting a .500 record right now…..”…I don’t think so.
SEP 03 TOR 1 0 4.11 1 1 0 0 0 0 5.1 10 7 7 1 1 3 98-69 5-8
73 funny // Sep 9, 2007 at 4:11 pm
Mike Says: “If he had the run support of Daisuke, he’d be getting a .500 record right now…..”…I don’t think so.
74 a Taiwanese-Chinese // Sep 9, 2007 at 5:58 pm
Mike Says: “If he had the run support of DaisukeHe, he’d be getting a .500 record right now…..”
Well, Daisuke did screwed up a 4:0 RS this time. Kind of sorry for him. Maybe it’s because the season here is longer than in Japan and he got worn out. But then, you take what you get. That’s inner strength.
75 IronChef // Sep 9, 2007 at 11:40 pm
Well, Daisuke did screwed up a 4:0 RS this time. Kind of sorry for him. Maybe it’s because the season here is longer than in Japan and he got worn out. But then, you take what you get. That’s inner strength.
Or it could be that Wang was developed in the US, while Daisuke just got here about 6 months ago, and he’s had to adjust to a new mound, a new ball, and a completely new environment? Comparing a 3rd year pitcher to a rookie pitcher is ridiculous.
Daisuke Matsuzaka is not a sackless man. The guy when he was 17 threw a 256 pitch complete game, and then came in relief the next day. I’m not going to call somebody like that and struggling a coward, or lacking “inner strength” or whatever bullshit you guys like to come up with. I’m going to look at the tangible reasons for his lack of recent success. What’s next Jon Lester is losing command of his breaking pitches because he lacks courage?
However, feel free to call JD Drew whatever girls’s name of the day you prefer. It gets really hard to come up with new ones after 6 months, I’ve had to use some names twice now.
SEP 03 TOR 1 0 4.11 1 1 0 0 0 0 5.1 10 7 7 1 1 3 98-69 5-8
Yes, let’s use one game to illustrate your point, when there were numerous games in this season in which Daisuke’s had minimal run support.
76 jackson // Sep 10, 2007 at 4:52 am
Matsuzaka was already a legend by the time he was in high school. From Wikipedia:
The legendary 3 days at the 1998 summer Koshien
In the quarterfinals of that year’s Summer Koshien, Matsuzaka threw 254 pitches in 17 innings in a win over powerhouse PL Gakuen. The next day, trailing by six runs during an 0-6 score at the end of the top of the eighth inning, the team miraculously won the game by scoring 7 runs in the last two innings (four in the eighth and three in the ninth). In that game he started in left field, but came in as a relief in the ninth inning to record a win. In the final, he threw a no-hitter, the second ever in a final.
—
77 a Taiwanese-Chinese // Sep 10, 2007 at 11:17 am
What’s gone is gone, and whatever will be will be.
Let’s hope he’ll be as good as you guys believe.
Again, why are we always talk about big names?
Why not talk about stats and how they’re counted? it’s an important issue been widely debated.
After all. big names is made by these stats. And the names will go, stats stay(how ironic!).
78 Nanny // Sep 10, 2007 at 11:45 am
“Often overshadowed by his own teammates and several other high-profile starting pitchers, Chien-Ming Wang sometimes hasn’t received due credit for his results. But Yankees manager Joe Torre said he considers Wang “one of the big guys,” someone who is a true ace.
“But there is always somebody else that is going to get more attention than him,” Torre said.
That may still be true after Sunday’s performance, but Wang’s results are necessitating as much publicity and discussion regarding the Cy Young Award as several of the American League’s elite pitchers, including Johan Santana, Josh Beckett and C.C. Sabathia. Wang tossed seven innings of three-run ball on Sunday and earned the win in the Yankees’ 6-3 victory over the Royals at Kauffman Stadium.
“I think he is [one of the best],” catcher Jorge Posada said. “I think he has proven a lot. He gets better and better every time he goes out there. He is showing it and not saying anything about it.
“He is very low-key and very quiet about it, and I think that is why people are not giving him the credit that he deserves. I think he deserves all the credit in the world…”___By Conor Nicholl / MLB.com
Hear! Hear! A fair report of an unfairly treated guy!
79 Nanny // Sep 10, 2007 at 11:47 am
“Often overshadowed by his own teammates and several other high-profile starting pitchers, Chien-Ming Wang sometimes hasn’t received due credit for his results. But Yankees manager Joe Torre said he considers Wang “one of the big guys,” someone who is a true ace.
“But there is always somebody else that is going to get more attention than him,” Torre said.
“I think he is [one of the best],” catcher Jorge Posada said. “I think he has proven a lot. He gets better and better every time he goes out there. He is showing it and not saying anything about it.
“He is very low-key and very quiet about it, and I think that is why people are not giving him the credit that he deserves. I think he deserves all the credit in the world…”___By Conor Nicholl / MLB.com
Hear! Hear! A fair report of an unfairly treated guy!
80 yanksrule // Sep 13, 2007 at 11:37 pm
His infield is fine, even the gold glove SS is OK> I think Captain Jeter has 1 gold glove to his collection of 4 rings. I can’t recall when Jeter’s defense ever cost the Yankees a game. Wang’s got 18 wins, the D behind him must be good with that total. No balls are ever hit to Jeter and he never turns any double plays, that must be another SS out there.
81 Alan // Sep 14, 2007 at 2:02 am
I grew up an inner city black kid in Philly during the 60’s and 70’s. But even so, I sever saw an NBA game until Dr. J came flying and slam dunking to town in ‘76. We went crazy and I fell in love with (in this order) Julius Erving, the Sixers and then the NBA. What’s wrong with that? Did I miss a whole world of sports at the time? Yes. Did I care? No. Did the Earth continue to revolve? Yes.
Your article is flawed on a couple of points. First celebrating the exploits of an individual is what draws people to anything en mass. The Wang Phenomenon is one such thing. Try embracing it, getting to the bottom of it and celebrating it instead of being a detractor from it. It’s great that a little, thriving nation gets world-wide exposure and a deserved sense of pride in this era of pomp and celebrity. Maybe in the course of watching, some of these fans will start to notice other players and the sport in general just like I did.
Another thing that is disputable about your ar